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| The Qibla [message #22918] |
Sat, 07 May 2005 18:55  |
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Oben
Messages: 345
Registered: December 2003
Location: Australia |
Thinker |
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Peace all,
I'm glad some serious discussion is beginning on these topics. I have posted previously on the qibla but I've come up against arguments which absolutely require hadith based support in terms of explaining the definition of qibla as a physical direction pointing towards a town in Arabia.
What I find a big problem is that the concepts of qibla, masjid-ul-haram, and salat are tied together in misunderstanding through an invisible glue that in my view represents 100% traditionalist understanding.
The fog of the traditionalists is taking its time to lift off these topics which are central to the way many follow traditionalist islam.
God willing, I'll try to post some more regarding the koran's verses when the topic is discussed more. Let me present a few empirical evidences why a 'focal point' as the 'kaba' is seen and 'physical direction' which qibla is seen as are in fact suspect.
Imagine if you will a town 1400 years ago in some place with a big pyramid at its centre. The pagans have set up a ritualised religion which uses this pyramid as a way to reach some intangible gods they have found appropriate to explain things in their lives.
A prophet comes to them pointing out their errors and directing them to a way that is straight forward. The ideas clash - the truth wins out, but then the prophet dies. The past beliefs are not completely erased but dormant. Through the years more and more of the old rituals and beliefs become injected into the 'straight way'.
That's how it has worked for all other things. Why should we imagine that traditionalist islam was any different?
Now coming to arguments of 'common direction' that some advance to support a physical focal point - imagine being in the town with the pyramid. If everyone was united say south of the pyramid then yes they may stand in a common direction. But when they are around the physical structure there are groups which are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED to one another. Symbols are powerful - and allegories must tally up with reality. Where in God's system does it ever have people who believe in the ONE God to be at odds with one another in direction as in this situation.
Why must one point on the physical earth be this point? What about continental drift and the change in this point over 1400 years by metres and more? Is God's system susceptible to change like that? What if the 'kaba' is destroyed in an earthquake as it has been in the past - are there signs in that for us?
God's system does not depend upon physical structures or geographical points. Empirically I find that this does not fit in with monotheism. My heart cannot acquiesce to it. God is one. God is intangible. Nothing can be associated with God. Then why do people associate things like buildings?
Regards.
"My Lord, direct me to be appreciative of the blessings You have bestowed upon me and my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Admit me by Your mercy into the company of Your righteous servants." 27:19
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| Re: The Qibla [message #22989 is a reply to message #22970 ] |
Mon, 09 May 2005 16:03  |
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Oben
Messages: 345
Registered: December 2003
Location: Australia |
Thinker |
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Peace,
Yes you are right. The direction set by the God is not a physical direction.
2:148 Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, GOD will summon you all. GOD is Omnipotent.
Each of us chooses the direction - and the best direction is the one towards righteousness. It can't be any clearer than that.
Peace.
"My Lord, direct me to be appreciative of the blessings You have bestowed upon me and my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Admit me by Your mercy into the company of Your righteous servants." 27:19
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| Re: The Qibla [message #24613 is a reply to message #22989 ] |
Thu, 23 June 2005 03:47 |
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Peace servant,
can you please support your views with some verses and please comment on them per your interpretation to it.
Since some verses seems to be in conflict with this view , though I support your view, but I need some reassurances to that , though I was not successful in producing / offering/ derive a good evidence as to support such view yet!
Peace ,
Noor
(17:84) Say, Everyone works in accordance with his belief and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path.
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| Re: The Qibla [message #25914 is a reply to message #22989 ] |
Sat, 16 July 2005 09:12 |
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| Quote: |
2:148 Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, GOD will summon you all. GOD is Omnipotent.
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Dear Servant:
The verse you are quoting is not telling us not to turn to a particular direction. It only tells us not to dwel and argue abut the direction, since it is not the purpose, but tool.
Similar statements can be found on other issues. For instance, read 7:26. There, we are not asked to walk naked; but not get obsesessed with it.
The Quran, in previous verses, is suggesting a new direction to turn; while some people insisted to remain with their custom and old habits.
Besides, the verse you have quoted, in my opinion, shows that the direction at question is not a metaphor, but a physical direction. The metaphorical direction (monotheism) is the most important one, yet the physical one too is justified, and in fact, it is used to test the accuracy of the metaphorical or intellectual/spiritual direction.
Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel; J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
www.islamicreform.org
19@19.org
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| Re: The Qibla [message #26631 is a reply to message #25914 ] |
Thu, 04 August 2005 19:10 |
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2:144
Khalifa
We have seen you turning your face about the sky (searching for the right direction). We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
Yusuf Ali
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is God unmindful of what they do.
Pickthal
We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.
Shakir
Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.
Sher Ali
Verily, WE see thee turning thy face often to heaven, surely then will we make thee turn to the Qiblah which thou likest. So turn thy face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you may be, turn your faces towards it. And they to whom the Book has been given know that this is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not unmindful of what they do.
"Progressive Muslims"
We see the shifting of your face towards the sky, We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: "You shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
As you see the 6 translations,you can see the mentioning of Turning your face towards the Sacred Masjid.This is a quranic commandment.
2:177
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the last day, and the Angels, and the scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves, and he holds the assembly, and he contributes towards betterment; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
This verse is to stress to us the importance of believe in God's system,and the unimportance of unnecessary directional debates...in fact this verse could be for all of us on this thread debating whether or not the direction is physical or mental.To me i believe it is a physical direction,as the sacred masjid is a physical place.if it was turn towards righteousness or something along that line...i can admit it involves mental and not physical involvment.
2:143
We thus made you an impartial community, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by GOD. GOD never puts your worship to waste. GOD is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful.
Well here you can see that the direction is changed to distinguish those who would readily follow the messenger and who would not.If this was a mental direction, then the messenger would be following his own direction and we our own individual direction...thus how can one follow the messenger readily,when the messenger's and every believer's mental qibla would be varying?Thus these verses have caused me to deduce that the qibla has to be a physical qibla towards the sacred masjid,and not a mental direction.Salamun 'alaykum
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| Re: The Qibla [message #32984 is a reply to message #26631 ] |
Thu, 02 February 2006 09:44 |
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Well here you can see that the direction is changed to distinguish those who would readily follow the messenger and who would not.If this was a mental direction, then the messenger would be following his own direction and we our own individual direction...thus how can one follow the messenger readily,when the messenger's and every believer's mental qibla would be varying?Thus these verses have caused me to deduce that the qibla has to be a physical qibla towards the sacred masjid,and not a mental direction.
Good comment! And people also forget the social factors behind the same physical direction. That also can be the only function anyway.
People give comments like continantel drifts, but that is a bit stupid because we still can locate the Kaaba. This comment also shows the function can only be a social function, because the location itself can't be holy since it shifts meters every year. And if it is destroyed, still we can find the location, because it isn't about the building.
I understand people refer to idol-worship, it is a bit tricky.
But lets say we stand in a field, and there is a tree on the other side of the field. I say lets race and who ever gets to the tree first, wins. So we race towards the finish, do you truly focus on the tree during that race? Or are you focusing on the finish? Or on winning the race?
What is your true goal? Will the tree always resemble a finish to you? Is that really part of the goal you are trying to achieve? Or is it just something that gives us a focal point during the race, so we can't disagree on the finish line?
Just a thought...
[Updated on: Thu, 02 February 2006 09:45]
DRC-Research into Quranic Cosmology and Message
Our Beacon-Islamic Study Group
Quran: Constitution for Humanity
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| Re: The Qibla [message #33037 is a reply to message #32984 ] |
Fri, 03 February 2006 01:04 |
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The Qibla is a uniting focal point for believers.So that we pray facing a single direction,like u mentioned it is rather logical in a societal context.As for claims of idol worship,it is a waste of time even arguing about it because anyone who has read the Quran knows how abhored idol worship is and that the Kaaba is just a direction,no one prays to the Kaaba and even if the kaaba is destroyed it's location still remains sacred n we can still follow it..(something which u have mentioned).Praise be to God,who guides us and clarifies things for us in his Quran al Kareem.Allahu Akbar.Peace.
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| Re: The Qibla [message #34011 is a reply to message #22918 ] |
Sat, 18 February 2006 11:52 |
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 warda
Messages: 15
Registered: February 2006
Location: Singapore |
Beginner |
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anyone who has read the Quran knows how abhored idol worship is and that the Kaaba is just a direction,no one prays to the Kaaba and even if the kaaba is destroyed it's location still remains sacred n we can still follow it..
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Kudos to Jai for making this good comment. It is important for muslims to not associate idol worshiping with praying in the Direction of the Kaaba (Qibla) and not to the Kaaba itself. It has been stated that we face the direction of the Kaaba when we pray. That doesn't tell us to worship it or think that is a symbol of God, which most non-muslims think. Logical in a sense that it unifies all muslims to pray in that one direction.
Regards,
Warda
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