Home » English » General Discussions » Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel
| Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55030] |
Tue, 02 February 2010 23:30  |
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vivek
Messages: 334
Registered: March 2009
Location: India |
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1.Do you still believe in Rashad's claim to messengership?
2.Do you believe in future messenger(s)?
3.Do you think YOU are a messenger?
4. What is your proof other than your(islamic fanatics)own dogma based entirely on twisted meaning or interpretation of a few Quranic verses or Hadiths or false theories like Code 19 that the present Quran does not contain any false verse?
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55123 is a reply to message #55030] |
Fri, 05 February 2010 07:32  |
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| Quote: |
1.Do you still believe in Rashad's claim to messengership?
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Yes.
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2.Do you believe in future messenger(s)?
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Yes.
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3.Do you think YOU are a messenger?
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Why is it that important for you? If I claimed messengership you would still continue in your opposition and unappreciation; wouldn't you?
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4. What is your proof other than your(islamic fanatics)own dogma based entirely on twisted meaning or interpretation of a few Quranic verses or Hadiths or false theories like Code 19 that the present Quran does not contain any false verse?
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Complex Question (See: Fallacies). So, learn how to ask logically proper question on an issue that you have blinded yourself, and then expect answer for this one.
Peace,
Edip
[Updated on: Fri, 05 February 2010 07:33]
Edip Yuksel; J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
www.islamicreform.org
19@19.org
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55210 is a reply to message #55197] |
Mon, 08 February 2010 06:24 |
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 konosuke
Messages: 27
Registered: February 2010 |
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Salam
I don't think so. In fact, GOD sends His messenger to guide his people out of the darkness, and to show them the right path. If GOD sends a message containing errors, that only means one thing: He did not fulfill His pledge. Now, as you know, GOD never breaks His pledge.
14:47. Do not think that GOD will ever break His promise to His messengers. GOD is Almighty, Avenger.
If you read the quran, you should know that a messenger of GOD is always sent to teach his people the scripture guide them into the light and to clarify things. This is GOD's system and GOD's system never changes.
2:164. GOD has blessed the believers by raising in their midst a messenger from among them, to recite for them His revelations, and to purify them, and to teach them the scripture and wisdom. Before this, they had gone totally astray.
So, i don't believe that Rashad's mission was only to reveal the mathematical miracle. It was only one of his duties. Just like the previous messengers, he's also confirmed and proclaimed GOD's religion for all the people.
Concerning the word "authorized" he used it because GOD authorized his translation.
[Updated on: Mon, 08 February 2010 06:37]
Our decision is already decreed for our servants the messengers. They are surely the victors.
http://islamission.forumactif.net/forum.htm
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55233 is a reply to message #55030] |
Mon, 08 February 2010 15:37 |
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ThirdMillenniuM
Messages: 323
Registered: October 2009
Location: MilkyWay = SamanYolu |
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salaam Konosuke,
Almighty never authorizes any translation, but only His original Arabic text, that believers --if they are capable-- must try to learn this easy Arabic text now, and then study and comprehend it,
as it should be comprehended! (43/3 = 54/22 = 75/18-19 ...)
And if a true Messenger advises or commands something that Almighty would never approve, he may certainly be punished for this, and no believers could protect him from this punishment! (69/44-47) But of course, he may definitely be forgiven then, and taken into Paradise, because of Almighty's deeper knowledge & mercy & wisdom in this issue. (37/181 & 48/2 & 27/10-11)
But if someone insists on this "unapproved" way --even after having been reminded with Almighty's clear commandments in this issue, after that Messenger's departure-- and still follow such "wishful-thinkings" (=amaneyya) of that Messenger, they may not be forgiven forever! (22/52-55) Remain in peace/salaam.
[Updated on: Mon, 08 February 2010 15:48]
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55238 is a reply to message #55233] |
Mon, 08 February 2010 17:27 |
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konosuke
Messages: 27
Registered: February 2010 |
Beginner |
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| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Mon, 08 February 2010 23:37 |
salaam Konosuke,
Almighty never authorizes any translation, but only His original Arabic text
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Salam,
Do you have any proof of this? Show me one verse that says GOD never authorizes a translation. You won't find it, for GOD always supports His messengers.
19. This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.*
20. Authorized by the Possessor of the Throne, fully supported.
21. He shall be obeyed and trusted.
| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Mon, 08 February 2010 23:37 |
And if a true Messenger advises or commands something that Almighty would never approve, he may certainly be punished for this, and no believers could protect him from this punishment! (69/44-47)
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You're missing the point, translating the quran has nothing to do with uttering additional teachings. It is but a mercy from GOD.
| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Mon, 08 February 2010 23:37 |
But if someone insists on this "unapproved" way --even after having been reminded with Almighty's clear commandments in this issue, after that Messenger's departure-- and still follow such "wishful-thinkings" (=amaneyya) of that Messenger, they may not be forgiven forever!
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So, you think that the messenger has taken a wrong path and we have to search for the truth. So, Rashad's showed us the wrong path and has misled his people. Though GOD's sent him to guide us into the light. It is but a nonsense. According to your statment, GOD's broken his pledge:
164. GOD has blessed the believers by raising in their midst a messenger from among them, to recite for them His revelations, and to purify them, and to teach them the scripture and wisdom. Before this, they had gone totally astray.
GOD would never let anyone distort a message he's sending to us or add something to it. Remember that all the duties of the messengers aren't fulfilled out of a personal desire. The entire mission is controled by GOD. And the messenger cannot do anything but deliver the whole message.
5:67. O you messenger, deliver what is revealed to you from your Lord- until you do, you have not delivered His message-and GOD will protect you from the people. GOD does not guide the disbelieving people.
92. You shall obey GOD, and you shall obey the messenger, and beware. If you turn away, then know that the sole duty of our messenger is to deliver the message EFFICIENTLY.
If you think that the messenger Rashad took the wrong path, then you're in contradiction with these verses.
[Updated on: Mon, 08 February 2010 17:31]
Our decision is already decreed for our servants the messengers. They are surely the victors.
http://islamission.forumactif.net/forum.htm
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55239 is a reply to message #55030] |
Mon, 08 February 2010 18:28 |
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ThirdMillenniuM
Messages: 323
Registered: October 2009
Location: MilkyWay = SamanYolu |
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salaam Konosuke,
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Certainly, we have made it an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan), that you may thus ponder and comprehend it (=ta'qeluuna)! (43/1)
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So if a true Messenger basically told his people now, that they should never bother learning the original "Arabic" of this heavenly Text and thus try to truthfully comprehend it; but they should only read his --somehow authorized?-- "English" version always after this instead, he must definitely have been "greatly mistaken," in the first place! And there would of course have to be some "dire consequences" for this kind of unauthorized & unapproved by Almighty utterances, in the way I tried to emphasize above, in the first place! (Please, see again 69/44-47 in this regard)
Though Aaron was too a true and honorable Messenger, he had acted in a very wrong way and thus caused many Israelites to go astray, based on his wrong assessments (please, see 20/92-94); but then Moses came and corrected his "greatly mistaken" ways, and showed the "right path" and "right attitude" in this case, and possibly some other critical issues as well! (20/95-98)
The Messenger (=Rasool) mentioned in these Verses (81/19-21) may definitely be Angel Messenger Gabriel who had God given "powers" (quvvaten = quvaa; please, see 81/20 = 53/5 = 2/97) in the sight of Almighty. Rashad (or any other human Messenger) did not & does not & will not have this kind of God given specific "powers" (=quvvaten) (81/20 = 53/5), in the first place, again, brother! Remain in peace/salaam.
[Updated on: Mon, 08 February 2010 18:32]
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55254 is a reply to message #55030] |
Tue, 09 February 2010 04:22 |
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ThirdMillenniuM
Messages: 323
Registered: October 2009
Location: MilkyWay = SamanYolu |
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Sorry, I had forgotten the complementary second Verse above! So here are both of them again, together:
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Certainly, we have made it an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan), that you may thus ponder and comprehend it (=ta'qeluuna)! (43/3)
This is a Scripture whose Verses are well-elucidated, as an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan) for a people who will thus know it (=ya'lamuuna)! (41/3)
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So the Messenger must always strongly advise, first of all, to all believers --if they are capable-- to learn --at least, in its most basic terms-- easy Arabic language of the Scripture (please, also see 54/22 here) that they may readily and easily study on its mathematical and textual context, in the first place. (74/26-31 = 2/25-26) (57/17 = 75/17-19) But if we are definitely in any way
not capable, of course we may be completely exempt from this responsibility then. (2/286 & 9/91 & 24/61) And we should, of course, be able to go only with a good translation then, when it is truthful to its original. Remain in peace/salaam.
[Updated on: Tue, 09 February 2010 04:29]
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55261 is a reply to message #55239] |
Tue, 09 February 2010 14:23 |
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konosuke
Messages: 27
Registered: February 2010 |
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| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 02:28 |
salaam Konosuke,
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Certainly, we have made it an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan), that you may thus ponder and comprehend it (=ta'qeluuna)! (43/1)
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So if a true Messenger basically told his people now, that they should never bother learning the original "Arabic" of this heavenly Text and thus try to truthfully comprehend it; but they should only read his --somehow authorized?-- "English" version always after this instead, he must definitely have been "greatly mistaken," in the first place!
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Salam Aleykoum,
So, you're saying that Rashad's translation is useless. And you think that a sincere believer cannot understand the quran without knowing Arabic. What kind of belief is this? Don't you read the quran?
41:44 If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."
You're the one who's been greatly mistaken, you're talking about guidance but you've forgotten that only the sincere can understand the quran, this has nothing to do with language. GOD is Almighty and He has sent down this book for all the people!
103. Most people, no matter what you do, will not believe.
104. You are not asking them for any money; you simply deliver this reminder for all the people.
105. So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass by them, heedlessly!
Language is irrelevant. Unless you're sincere, you'll never truly understand the quran, nor GOD's commandments. that's all.
75. I swear by the positions of the stars.
76. This is an oath, if you only knew, that is awesome.
77. This is an honorable Quran.
78. In a protected book.
79. None can grasp it except the sincere.
| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 02:28 |
And there would of course have to be some "dire consequences" for this kind of unauthorized & unapproved by Almighty utterances, in the way I tried to emphasize above, in the first place! (Please, see again 69/44-47 in this regard)
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44. Had he uttered any other teachings.
45. We would have punished him.
46. We would have stopped the revelations to him.
47. None of you could have helped him.
48. This is a reminder for the righteous.
Here's your proof. Now, just tell me, where do you see that GOD doesn't support and doesn't approve rashad's translation? Rashad didn't say to his people "O my people, do not learn arabic". Go ahead and learn the beautiful Arabic language, if this is what you want. I'm just saying that rashad's translation was a mercy from GOD, that all the sincere believers can enjoy it. GOD is the Most Merciful, and you do not value Him as He should be valued. You're only conjecturing, just because you think that the quran shouldn't be translated.
3:164. GOD has blessed the believers by raising in their midst a messenger from among them, to recite for them His revelations, and to purify them, and to teach them the scripture and wisdom. Before this, they had gone totally astray.
10:36. Most of them follow nothing but conjecture, and conjecture is no substitute for the truth. GOD is fully aware of everything they do.
| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 02:28 |
Though Aaron was too a true and honorable Messenger, he had acted in a very wrong way and thus caused many Israelites to go astray, based on his wrong assessments (please, see 20/92-94); but then Moses came and corrected his "greatly mistaken" ways, and showed the "right path" and "right attitude" in this case, and possibly some other critical issues as well!
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So what? Are you Moses?? You cannot take this kind of example to justify what you're doing.
Before Moses come back, Aaron said this to his people
20:90. And Aaron had told them, "O my people, this is a test for you. Your only Lord is the Most Gracious, so follow me, and obey my commands."
Aaron told them to follow him and obey him, though he is just a human being who makes mistakes. Why? It is because he was a messenger of GOD and he was appointed by Him to guide his people into the light. Still, they did not listen to Aaron. Then Moses come back and what did he say to Aaron?
20:92. (Moses) said, "O Aaron, what is it that prevented you, when you saw them go astray,
93. "from following my orders? Have you rebelled against me?"
This is exactly what's happening now with rashad. We, as believers, are supposed to follow the guidance that the messenger's brought, for it comes from the Almighty. Yet, since the messenger's gone, almost everyone's chosen to follow his own opinion. The same story as usual.
3:144. Muhammad was no more than a messenger like the messengers before him. Should he die or get killed, would you turn back on your heels? Anyone who turns back on his heels, does not hurt GOD in the least. GOD rewards those who are appreciative.
Our decision is already decreed for our servants the messengers. They are surely the victors.
http://islamission.forumactif.net/forum.htm
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55270 is a reply to message #55030] |
Tue, 09 February 2010 18:10 |
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ThirdMillenniuM
Messages: 323
Registered: October 2009
Location: MilkyWay = SamanYolu |
Thinker |
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Peace Konosuke,
K: So, you're saying that Rashad's translation is useless. And you think that a sincere believer cannot understand the quran without knowing Arabic. What kind of belief is this? Don't you read the quran?
41:44 If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."
TM: First, brother, let's see what Almighty authentically tells in this Verse, in His original Scripture:
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If we made it a foreign Reading, they would say: Shouldn't its Signs have been --according to arabic style-- elucidated? Should it be thus foreign, and (though this is) Arabic? Say: It is a "Guidance" and a Healing for the believers! But the ones who will not believe, in their ears there are blockages, and it is a blindness upon them. Those are as if being addressed from a far place! (41/44)
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Immediately, I will only try to basically give "19 code & system" related implications of this Verse herein:
Because that this authentic "19 code & system" which is basically called "Guidance" (=huda, yahdee) and thus a "Reading" by Almighty above and herein in these Verses (please, see 74/26-31 = 39/23-28) is to practically be performed in a foreign style now --that is, all the calculations thereof are to be done from left to right-- though the original Arabic text is practically being recited in an arabic style --that is from right to left-- this will be made an "issue" by those who want to divert themselves and people from this 19 based Mathematical "Guidance," as must have thus beforehand miraculously been pointed out above, in this Age. (please, also see 57/12 = 41/44 in this regard)
But to be able to a little bit clearly comprehend and know the real context and implications of this Verse above, we, each and every of us, must hearken to Almighty's voice, first of all:
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Certainly, we have made it an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan), that you may thus ponder and comprehend it (=ta'qeluuna)! (43/3)
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So let me shortly repeat again my statements above:
So the Messenger must always strongly advise, first of all, to all believers --if they are capable-- to learn --at least, in its most basic terms-- easy Arabic language of the Scripture (please, also see 54/22 here) that they may readily and easily understand and study on its mathematical and textual context, to attain the eternal salvation promised to them for this by Almighty, in the first place. (74/26-31 = 2/25-26) (57/17 = 75/17-19) But if we are definitely in any way not capable, of course we may be completely exempt from this responsibility then. (2/286 & 9/91 & 24/61) And we should, of course, be able to go only with a good translation then, when it is truthful to its original.
But as we must have already clearly seen in the above Verses, Rashad's translation of (41/44) is unfortunately not truthful to its original, and so in clear "contradiction" with the strong advise Almighty has already given to all --capable-- believers herein in this Verse (41/3), first of all! So he has thus unintentionally blocked the way between believers and Almighty, by uttering such an unapproved & unauthorized utterance in His Name, and must have tasted the consequence thereafter, as Almighty forewarned him and all other Messengers in this kind of most critical issues! (69/44-47) May Almighty forgive him and take him into His paradise as an honorable Messenger, forever, as He had genuinely promised it for him --like all of His honorable Messengers-- after this! (37/181 & 48/2 & 27/10-11)
K: You're the one who's been greatly mistaken, you're talking about guidance but you've forgotten that only the sincere can understand the quran, this has nothing to do with language...
Language is irrelevant. Unless you're sincere, you'll never truly understand the quran, nor GOD's commandments. that's all.
TM: Let Almighty answer you again, in the most correct way:
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Certainly, we have made it an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan), that you may thus ponder and comprehend it (=ta'qeluuna)! (43/3)
This is a Scripture whose Verses are well-elucidated, as an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan) for a people who will thus know it (=ya'lamuuna)! (41/3)
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Of course, "sincerity" must be a primary & fundamental trait in this critical issue (13/27), but its original "language" must secondarily be very relevant thereafter also, as must have thus been clearly pointed out above by Almighty!
K:
44. Had he uttered any other teachings.
45. We would have punished him.
46. We would have stopped the revelations to him.
47. None of you could have helped him.
48. This is a reminder for the righteous.
Here's your proof. Now, just tell me, where do you see that GOD doesn't support and doesn't approve rashad's translation? Rashad didn't say to his people "O my people, do not learn arabic". Go ahead and learn the beautiful Arabic language, if this is what you want. I'm just saying that rashad's translation was a mercy from GOD, that all the sincere believers can enjoy it. GOD is the Most Merciful, and you do not value Him as He should be valued. You're only conjecturing, just because you think that the quran shouldn't be translated.
TM: Not "If this is what you want!" but "if this is what Almighty strongly advise you to do! (41/3)" first of all, brother!
And Where did I say: "Quran shouldn't be --truthfully-- translated!" brother, second of all?
And please, go and see "Who could be that 3rd Elijah anticipated in the Scripture?" topic in Quran Study section, to better understand how I see Rashad as an honorable Messenger, though "unintentionally" but hugely mistaken in some critical issues...
K: So what? Are you Moses?? You cannot take this kind of example to justify what you're doing...
Though I can clearly see in the Scripture that there must be a "Moses" (that real Messenger of Covenant) who is prophesied to come out surprisingly, suddenly and a short time after Rashad (please, see "Messenger of Covenant as prophesied by Isaiah & David & Jesus" topics) now;
but even if there were no "Moses" to come out now, again many sincere believers who already knew the basic easy Arabic of the Scripture (41/3 = 54/22) could clearly see some "unintentional" but dire mistakes in some of Rashad's approaches, and could correct them to some degree, according to genuine commandments of Almighty! (17/84 & 22/52-54) Remain in peace/salaam.
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55275 is a reply to message #55123] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 07:20 |
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vivek
Messages: 334
Registered: March 2009
Location: India |
Thinker |
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Peace everyone,
Vivek : Do you think YOU are a messenger?
Edip : Why is it that important for you? If I claimed messengership you would still continue in your opposition and unappreciation; wouldn't you?
Vivek : Can you give a direct answer, instead of trying to be evasive?
Vivek : What is your proof other than your(islamic fanatics)own dogma based entirely on twisted meaning or interpretation of a few Quranic verses or Hadiths or false theories like Code 19 that the present Quran does not contain any false verse?
Edip : Complex Question (See: Fallacies). So, learn how to ask logically proper question on an issue that you have blinded yourself, and then expect answer for this one.
Vivek : I don't think my question is complex. Anyway, if you find it so, I just put it as under for your better comprehension :
What is the evidence for the dogma held by islamic fanatics that there is no addition to or deletion from the original text of the Quran, other than the so called proof based on the following :
1. Twisted meaning or interpretation of a few Quranic verses
2. Hadiths
3. Fraudulent theory like Code 19
Peace,
Vivek
[Updated on: Wed, 10 February 2010 07:25]
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55282 is a reply to message #55270] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 12:03 |
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konosuke
Messages: 27
Registered: February 2010 |
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| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 02:10 |
First, brother, let's see what Almighty authentically tells in this Verse, in His original Scripture:
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Salam Aleykoum
How can you say such a thing? Do you think Rashad didn't make his translation from the original arabic quran? Here we have two different translations. From my point of view, Rashad's translation makes sense: If the messenger would have brought a quran in a foreign language, his people would have said "WHY", (lawla) why did GOD send down a quran that we cannot possibly understand?
26:198. If we revealed this to people who do not know Arabic.
26:199. And had him recite it (in Arabic), they could not possibly believe in it.
If you're given a quran in a language that you don't know, you'll never be able to believe in it. This is a physical fact. What's the use of sending to the entire world a book that cannot be understand in other languages but Arabic? Think about it, an arabic word can have 20 different meanings. Think about the great confusion that it would have brought. And if you want a proof of what i'm saying, look at the great differences between Rashad's translation and yours. Don't you think that people would find great difficulties in applying their rites in that case? Just look the current situation: There are people who make 2 salat, other who make 3 salat, etc You're saying that one must learn arabic to fully understand the quran, but look at all this mess! Is this what you call guidance? Your way of thinking isn't that of GOD. HE is the Most kind, He doesn't want us to be in confusion, and He cares for all the people. When it comes to His guidance, language is irrelevant.That makes sense. So let me show you again Rashad's translation
41:44. If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."
Hence the authorized translation of Rashad, for he was a messenger and one of his duties was to teach us the correct meaning of the scripture. And i shall remind you of something: Rashad KNEW Arabic. You may be the one who has misunderstood 41:44
21:106. This is a proclamation for people who are worshipers.
21:107. We have sent you out of mercy from us towards the whole world.
3:164. GOD has blessed the believers by raising in their midst a messenger from among them, to recite for them His revelations, and to purify them, and to teach them the scripture and wisdom. Before this, they had gone totally astray.
| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 02:10 |
But as we must have already clearly seen in the above Verses, Rashad's translation of (41/44) is unfortunately not truthful to its original, and so in clear "contradiction" with the strong advise Almighty has already given to all --capable-- believers herein in this Verse (41/3), first of all! So he has thus unintentionally blocked the way between believers and Almighty, by uttering such an unapproved & unauthorized utterance in His Name, and must have tasted the consequence thereafter, as Almighty forewarned him and all other Messengers in this kind of most critical issues! (69/44-47) May Almighty forgive him and take him into His paradise as an honorable Messenger, forever, as He had genuinely promised it for him --like all of His honorable Messengers-- after this! (37/181 & 48/2 & 27/10-11)
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You're the one who is in trouble with the Almighty, look at yourself, you're talking about things that you don't know, just because you like your opinion better than that of the messenger, regarding some verses. Proclaming false things about GOD is truly an evil behavior, and those who take the wrong path are the losers. According to your statement, rashad took the wrong path, and attributed to GOD false claims. Thus, he was with the losers. Let me show you what GOD thinks of His messenger.
37:171. Our decision is already decreed for our servants the messengers.
37:172. They are surely the victors.
58:21. GOD has decreed: "I and My messengers will most assuredly win." GOD is Powerful, Almighty.
| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 02:10 |
Of course, "sincerity" must be a primary & fundamental trait in this critical issue (13/27), but its original "language" must secondarily be very relevant thereafter also, as must have thus been clearly pointed out above by Almighty!
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Yes, the original language of the quran is very important, the messenger made his translation from this original language. End of the issue.
You said that GOD doesn't approve the fact that Rashad made a translation, for He never authorized it. I asked you for some proof, and all you can do is showing me verses that don't prove anything concerning the authorization of rashad's translation. Your statement has no basis! And now, you're saying that GOD strongly advises us to learn arabic and you show me the following verse as a proof:
41:3. A scripture whose verses provide the complete details, in an Arabic Quran, for people who know.
Sorry, but i don't think that we're commanded here to learn arabic. It says that the quran was revealed in arabic and that its verses provide the complete details. According to your point of view, knowing arabic is required to fully understand the quran. The messenger knew arabic! Even from your point of view, i don't get why you don't trust his translation, he was supported by GOD, and his duty was to teach us the scripture.
| ThirdMillenniuM wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 02:10 |
Though I can clearly see in the Scripture that there must be a "Moses" (that real Messenger of Covenant) who is prophesied to come out surprisingly, suddenly and a short time after Rashad (please, see "Messenger of Covenant as prophesied by Isaiah & David & Jesus" topics) now;
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Oh my GOD...Now there's a second version of the messenger of the covenant? Oh well, let me guess, this messenger will come and say "O my people, i have come to correct what the previous messenger of the covenant did. In fact, he's taken the wrong path and has led his people out of the light.". This contradicts GOD's system, don't you think? GOD sends His messenger to guide the people and proclaim for them the true religion, a messenger is never sent to proclaim a wrong path. Remember that the purpose of this is to guide the people, it has nothing to do with the personal desire of Rashad.
I just have one question: How many times do you pray each day?
Our decision is already decreed for our servants the messengers. They are surely the victors.
http://islamission.forumactif.net/forum.htm
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55291 is a reply to message #55030] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 18:46 |
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ThirdMillenniuM
Messages: 323
Registered: October 2009
Location: MilkyWay = SamanYolu |
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salaam Konosuke,
K: How can you say such a thing? Do you think Rashad didn't make his translation from the original arabic quran? Here we have two different translations. From my point of view, Rashad's translation makes sense: If the messenger would have brought a quran in a foreign language, his people would have said "WHY", (lawla) why did GOD send down a quran that we cannot possibly understand?
TM: Let me try to clearly show you here, first of all, why Rashad's translation of (41/44) is not truthful to its original, and so naturally in bare "contradiction" with Almighty's commandment, in the first place!
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This is a Scripture whose Signs are well-elucidated, as an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan) for a people who will thus know it (=ya'lamuuna)! (41/3)
XXXXX
Rashad's translation of (41/44) then
...Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a Guide and healing...
&&&&&
Truthful translation of (41/44) then
...Should it be thus foreign, and (though this is) Arabic? Say: It --thus in its original Arabic-- is a "Guidance" and a Healing for the believers...
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We must first notice here that the term "Guidance" (=Hudan) used in (41/44) above is also basically an attribute of that authentic "19 code & system," first of all! (please, see 74/31 = 41/44; especially yahde/guide = hudan/guidance relation therein first) So where can we find this "Guidance" (=19 code & system) then, now?
=in Arabic original only?
as Almighty emphasized above in those two coherently connected Verses (41/3 = 41/44)!
=in Arabic original, or a non-Arabic translation also; it doesn't matter!
as Rashad thus implied in those of his two thus inadvertently disconnected --not truthful to its original-- translation of these two Verses (41/3 X 41/44)!
And the original Arabic of the Scripture is specifically made easy and simple, without any difficulty, by Almighty (43/3 = 54/22 = 39/28) that all --capable-- believers may easily learn and begin to "comprehend" it, rightfully in its mathematical and textual aspects, thereafter! (43/3 = 54/22 = 39/28) I have never seen a translation that would be as easy & simple & clear & pure
as the original Arabic is, really never! This does not mean, of course, it shouldn't be translated; it must be translated (remaining truthful to its original, of course) that all --in no way,
not capable of learning its original Arabic-- all believers may benefit immensely from that for their eternal salvation, after this. (2/286 & 9/91)
K: Hence the authorized translation of Rashad, for he was a messenger and one of his duties was to teach us the correct meaning of the scripture. And i shall remind you of something: Rashad KNEW Arabic. You may be the one who has misunderstood 41:44
TM: Almighty never "authorizes" any translation, instead of its fully "authorized" Arabic original, first of all, brother! (41/3 & 43/3) The Messenger, of course, must prepare a --truthful to its original-- translation; but also must encourage all --capable-- believers to use that translation as a tool, to learn --if they can-- its simple original Arabic --at least, in its most basic terms-- eventually, that they may easily ponder and comprehend it, mathematically and textually then by themselves, as it should thus be easily comprehended, by Almighty's great favor and help! (29/69 = 41/3 & 43/3 & 54/22 & 57/17 & 75/17-19 & ...) You would also easily and clearly see then, brother, who has misunderstood what herein, unmistakably, A.W.!
K: You're the one who is in trouble with the Almighty, look at yourself, you're talking about things that you don't know, just because you like your opinion better than that of the messenger, regarding some verses. Proclaming false things about GOD is truly an evil behavior, and those who take the wrong path are the losers. According to your statement, rashad took the wrong path, and attributed to GOD false claims. Thus, he was with the losers. Let me show you what GOD thinks of His messenger.
37:171. Our decision is already decreed for our servants the messengers.
37:172. They are surely the victors.
58:21. GOD has decreed: "I and My messengers will most assuredly win." GOD is Powerful, Almighty.
TM: If a true Messenger took the wrong path in some most critical issues and utter some unapproved & unauthorized utterances in Almighty's name, he shall definitely have to pay for this sin, first of all, in that very "specific way" Almighty has clearly pointed out herein (69/44-47); but after that he may definitely be forgiven and taken to heaven as an honorable Messenger then again, because of specific reasons only known to Almighty, before the foundation of this world, and because of His deeper knowledge & mercy & wisdom in this issue! (37/181 & 48/2 & 27/10-11)
But those who insist on such "wishful-thinkings" (=amaneyya) of such a Messenger, even after having clearly been shown herein the wrongfulness of those "wisful-thinkings," which are against the clear commandments of Almighty, they may not be forgiven then forever! (22/52-55) (Please, certainly see again "Who could be that 3rd Elijah anticipated in the Scripture" topic, to see some more clear and detailed critical Quranic information in this regard.)
K: ...And now, you're saying that GOD strongly advises us to learn arabic and you show me the following verse as a proof:
41:3. A scripture whose verses provide the complete details, in an Arabic Quran, for people who know.
Sorry, but i don't think that we're commanded here to learn arabic. It says that the quran was revealed in arabic and that its verses provide the complete details. According to your point of view, knowing arabic is required to fully understand the quran. The messenger knew arabic! Even from your point of view, i don't get why you don't trust his translation, he was supported by GOD, and his duty was to teach us the scripture.
TM: If you go to that specific topic I referred to above, first of all, brother, herein, I hope you will clearly see A.W. the true Messenger identity of Rashad; what was his basic mission, what he may have done right, and what he may have done wrong in this aspect; why did he pass away in the end, in that specific way he passed away? And many other most critical issues, regarding our eternal salvation, in this regard now.
But because you are stuck in the "authorized" translation of Rashad and thus unfortunately blocked from the original Scripture of Almighty, thus from the very beginning now, it may be useless then to argue with you on the authentic Verses, or any other related matter now! You are thus inadvertently preconditioned not to really ponder and perceive them, no matter how profound and clear they may be...
K: Oh my GOD...Now there's a second version of the messenger of the covenant? Oh well, let me guess, this messenger will come and say "O my people, i have come to correct what the previous messenger of the covenant did. In fact, he's taken the wrong path and has led his people out of the light.".
TM: There is only one real "Mesenger of Covenant" (be sure, that was not Rashad!) who is prophesied to come after the "Messenger" who would prepare the way before him (be sure, that had to be Rashad!) And this is not a hidden & shocking thing, if you carefully read that Malachi (3/1-3) again. It is already clearly prophesied therein, as all Jews and Christians already knew this fact very well for thousands of years, and were waiting for these "two specific Messengers," one after the other, therein! If you go to that topic I referred to above, and some related other topics therein, (especially, "the Name of that Messenger of Covenant now, as mathematically engraved in the Scripture!" first) I hope there are more than enough profound & powerful evidences therein now regarding this most critical issue, in this Age! And yes, Moses was too a little bit angry and upset initially about that fundamentally wrong attitude of his brother Aaron, but then patiently corrected his dire mistakes, and sought forgiveness... (20/92-98 & 7/150-151) Remain in peace/salaam!
[Updated on: Wed, 10 February 2010 19:04]
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55298 is a reply to message #55275] |
Thu, 11 February 2010 00:00 |
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rodeenr
Messages: 55
Registered: August 2002
Location: USA |
Beginner |
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Dear vivek-
I have a humble comment on your question --
What is the evidence for the dogma held by islamic fanatics that there is no addition to or deletion from the original text of the Quran, other than the so called proof based on the following :
1. Twisted meaning or interpretation of a few Quranic verses
2. Hadiths
3. Fraudulent theory like Code 19
----------------------------------------------------
Edip is right -- there is no good answer to your question because you have already passed judgment and drawn your own conclusions.
YES -- believe it or not -- PROOF is a SUBJECTIVE thing. You read that correctly.
No matter how "heavy" the evidence, it can always be scrutinized and rejected and your bias is so strong against Edip's "dogma," at least as you understand it, as evidenced by words like "fraudulent" and "twisted," that it is clear that no amount of evidence will convince you. Your goal is simply to undermine any piece of evidence that one might produce.
So let's start with something basic --- do you have ten fingers and ten toes? Probably. But some people are not born with ten fingers. Sometimes they have extra appendages. Does this mean they have 11 fingers? But the extra fingers are not functional like the other 10. Does this mean they have 10 fingers and one appendage? Since humans do not have appendages and only fingers, does this mean that those people with extra appendages are not human? Has our definition of human changed? Has our definition of fingers changed? But they have eyes, ears, and brains like other humans. What are they, then? The appendages and the human-like beings? Continue down this line of reasoning and you will soon end up like David Hume .. and conclude that nothing can be really known because nothing can be defined with super precision. Time to get a grip .. of course we can not define things with super precision which is why our definitions are always an over-simplification of reality. But this does not mean we can not have an approximate understanding of reality.
It is true that science advances itself on the basis of skepticism, of constant dogma challenge. But when there are some patterns in nature ... and some that don't exactly fit the pattern .. does that mean the predominant pattern did not have a purpose (functional, evolutionarily, or otherwise) to it?
THIS, my friend, is a matter of opinion, and why PROOF is a matter of OPINION. And the Qur'an actually flat out says this.
If there are some general patterns in a book, like the count of days coincidentally the same as the number of approximate days in a year, or a certain number, such as 19, that is specifically mentioned in a book, has patterns that appear repeatedly but, when scrutinized, may disappear depending on spelling or grammar or whatever .. then whether it is PROOF or NOT PROOF depends on your OPINION .. which, in my humble opinion, is exactly what the QUR'AN means when it says that 19 will strengthen the hearts of the believers and weaken the hearts of the disbelievers. Of course, this is my opinion, and hope that God will continue to help me understand his teachings.
Finally, Vivek, I respect your opinion and perhaps you may consider respecting Edip's by not using words like "fraudulent."
Rodeen
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55410 is a reply to message #55030] |
Mon, 15 February 2010 13:52 |
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konosuke
Messages: 27
Registered: February 2010 |
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Salam Aleykoum,
This answer will be a little different from my previous answers. The fact is that i'm not the only one who follows the complete message that Rashad has brought. Thus, the following responses are from my brothers and sisters in islam: Tchoupa, Zuitouna, Gaspard and La soumission. All of us trust GOD and His messenger, and all of us disown what you're doing.
TCHOUPA to Koranist
Koranist: Anybody correct me but I think he used the word Authorized for his translation to DEFY Saudia Arabia who are supposedly the authority to decide whether a translation is ok or not.
Lol, this is the best part. So rashad would've lied just to defy the arabians. Can you imagine Rashad saying us that his translation is « authorized » by GOD, just for effect? Lol i can't believe it.
To THIRDMILLENUM:
salaam Konosuke,
Almighty never authorizes any translation, but only His original Arabic text, that believers –if they are capable-- must try to learn this easy Arabic text now, and then study and comprehend it,
as it should be comprehended! (43/3 = 54/22 = 75/18-19 ...)
And if a true Messenger advises or commands something that Almighty would never approve, he may certainly be punished for this, and no believers could protect him from this punishment! (69/44-47) But of course, he may definitely be forgiven then, and taken into Paradise, because of Almighty's deeper knowledge & mercy & wisdom in this issue. (37/181 & 48/2 & 27/10-11)
But if someone insists on this "unapproved" way --even after having been reminded with Almighty's clear commandments in this issue, after that Messenger's departure-- and still follow such "wishful-thinkings" (=amaneyya) of that Messenger, they may not be forgiven forever! (22/52-55)
So, according to your statement, the quran must be read in arabic and no translation can be authorized. Also, the messenger would have said things that GOD does not approve, but, who knows? Maybe GOD will forgive him (lol) or maybe he will go to hell, then he will be taken to the Paradise. But one shall never, ever follow the messenger's "wishful thinkings"! Wooow, you're really clever you know, i could almost bow down before such knowledge.
First of all, GOD explains us that sincerity is the key, the language doesn't matter, even someone who know arabic very well cannot understand the quran. 41:44
And GOD says that HE sends a messenger to preach in the tongue of his people.
[14:4] We did not send any messenger except (to preach) in the tongue of his people, in order to clarify things for them. GOD then sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. He is the Almighty, the Most Wise.
[44:58] We have thus clarified it in your language, that they may take heed.
[26:200] We thus render it (like a foreign language) in the hearts of the guilty.
Second of all, a believer never lies about GOD, and he never says that GOD's inspired him when it is not the case. GOD says that what the messengers promise us is the truth, unlike the Devil who promises us illusions. Is it too much of a wonder for them that GOD inspired a man?
[10:2] Is it too much of a wonder for the people that we inspired a man like them? He (was inspired to say), "You shall warn the people, and give good news to those who believe that they have attained a position of prominence at their Lord." The disbelievers said, "This is a clever magician!"
12:108. Say, "This is my path: I invite to GOD, on the basis of a clear proof, and so do those who follow me. GOD be glorified. I am not an idol worshiper."
12:109. We did not send before you except men whom we inspired, chosen from the people of various communities. Did they not roam the earth and see the consequences for those before them? The abode of the Hereafter is far better for those who lead a righteous life. Would you then understand?
[21:7] We did not send before you except men whom we inspired. Ask those who know the scripture, if you do not know.
Note how they're comparing Rashad to a liar, a transgressor!
[6:93] Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies and attributes them to GOD, or says, "I have received divine inspiration," when no such inspiration was given to him, or says, "I can write the same as GOD's revelations?" If only you could see the transgressors at the time of death! The angels extend their hands to them, saying, "Let go of your souls. Today, you have incurred a shameful retribution for saying about GOD other than the truth, and for being too arrogant to accept His revelations.
Though GOD said that the messenger is not crazy and that he is on the right path:
[34:46] Say, "I ask you to do one thing: Devote yourselves to GOD, in pairs or as individuals, then reflect. Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy. He is a manifest warner to you, just before the advent of a terrible retribution."
34:47. Say, "I do not ask you for any wage; you can keep it. My wage comes only from GOD. He witnesses all things."
34:48. Say, "My Lord causes the truth to prevail. He is the Knower of all secrets."
34:49. Say, "The truth has come; while falsehood can neither initiate anything, nor repeat it."
34:50. Say, "If I go astray, I go astray because of my own shortcomings. And if I am guided, it is because of my Lord's inspiration. He is Hearer, Near."
34:51. If you could only see them when the great terror strikes them; they cannot escape then, and they will be taken away forcibly.
34:52. They will then say, "We now believe in it," but it will be far too late.
34:53. They have rejected it in the past; they have decided instead to uphold conjecture and guesswork.*
34:54. Consequently, they were deprived of everything they longed for. This is the same fate as their counterparts in the previous generations. They harbored too many doubts.
81:19. This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.*
81:20. Authorized by the Possessor of the Throne, fully supported.
81:21. He shall be obeyed and trusted.
81:22. Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy.
81:23. He saw him at the high horizon.*
81:24. He is not holding back any news.
[43:43] You shall steadfastly preach what is revealed to you; you are in the right path.*
TCHOUPA to thirdmillenium
THIRDMILLENIUM:
Though Aaron was too a true and honorable Messenger, he had acted in a very wrong way and thus caused many Israelites to go astray, based on his wrong assessments (please, see 20/92-94); but then Moses came and corrected his "greatly mistaken" ways, and showed the "right path" and "right attitude" in this case, and possibly some other critical issues as well! (20/95-98)
So Aaron would be responsible for the straying of the children of israel?? He asked them to refrain, but they didn't listen to him and he's been threaten with his life! He knew that he wasn't able to do something until Moses return, and he has never followed them!
20:90. And Aaron had told them, "O my people, this is a test for you. Your only Lord is the Most Gracious, so follow me, and obey my commands."
20:91. They said, "We will continue to worship it, until Moses comes back."
THIRDMILLENIUM:
TM: First, brother, let's see what Almighty authentically tells in this Verse, in His original Scripture:
====
If we made it a foreign Reading, they would say: Shouldn't its Signs have been --according to arabic style-- elucidated? Should it be thus foreign, and (though this is) Arabic? Say: It is a "Guidance" and a Healing for the believers! But the ones who will not believe, in their ears there are blockages, and it is a blindness upon them. Those are as if being addressed from a far place! (41/44)
There are some lucky coincidences, i've been talking about this verse wich has been badly translated and i see that your translation isn't better! You really want to revert to the days of ignorance.:
41:44 If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."
41.44. Walaw jaAAalnahu qur-anan aAAjamiyyan laqaloo lawla fussilat ayatuhu aaAAjamiyyun waAAarabiyyun qul huwa lillatheena amanoo hudan washifaon waallatheena la yu/minoona fee athanihim waqrun wahuwa AAalayhim AAaman ola-ika yunadawna min makanin baAAeedin
41.44. If we revealed this Quran in a foreign language, they would have objected: « If only its verses were clear and comprehensible! How? A Quran in a foreign language for Arab people? » Answer them: « This Quran is a guide and a balm for the believers, only the negators pretend not to hear and pretend to be blind. It is as if the call that they were given was too far to be heard. »
Here you can see that the difference starts from the word « How » wich is « lawla » in Arabic. This word means « Why » not « How », let me give you an example:
5.63. Lawla yanhahumu alrrabbaniyyoona waal-ahbaru AAan qawlihimu al-ithma waaklihimu alssuhta labi/sa ma kanoo yasnaAAoona
5.63. Pourquoi leurs rabbins et leurs grands théologiens ne leur interdisent-ils pas de tenir des propos coupables et de vivre de spéculations illicites? Quelle vilaine chose que leur silence !
I don't even need to go any further, let's start again from the beginning « If we had revealed this quran in a foreign language (or non-arabic) people would have said « WHY » » As for « fussilat ayatuhu » if i translate it, it gives us « detailed verses » thus, « fussilat ayatuhu aaAAjamiyyun waAAarabiyyun » we have « Whether the detailed verses are non-Arabic (foreign language ) or Arabic » So, even from a purely logical point of view, anyone can see that Rashad's translation is correct.
ZUITOUNA to all
Salam,
They will never understand, their hearts are sealed and blocked by their ego. Leave us alone! The quran witnesses their betrayal, the quran is clear. I just don't get it: each sura contains a lesson, but this only augments their straying... For they've decided to disbelieve.
3:86. Why should GOD guide people who disbelieved after believing, and after witnessing that the
messenger is truth, and after solid proofs* have been given to them? GOD does not guide the
wicked.
3: 106.
106. The day will come when some faces will be brightened (with joy), while other faces will be
darkened (with misery). As for those whose faces are darkened, they will be asked, "Did you not
disbelieve after believing? Therefore, suffer the retribution for your disbelief."
They've waited for the messenger's death, for they knew that he wouldn't have approved their betrayal!!!
29. You shall remind the people. With your Lord's blessing's upon you, you are neither a soothsayer, nor crazy.
30. They may say, "He is a poet; let us just wait until he is dead."
31. Say, "Go on waiting; I will wait along with you."
32. Is it their dreams that dictate their behavior, or are they naturally wicked?
33. Do they say, "He made it all up?" Instead, they are simply disbelievers.
Are they saying that the messenger has held a crucial information (3 salat)??
GOD is lying when he says this??
81:15. I solemnly swear by the galaxies.
16. Precisely running in their orbits.
17. By the night as it falls.
18. And the morn as it breathes.
19. This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.*
20. Authorized by the Possessor of the Throne, fully supported.
21. He shall be obeyed and trusted.
22. Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy.
23. He saw him at the high horizon.*
24. He is not holding back any news.
25. It is not the talk of a rejected devil.
26. Now then, where will you go?
27. This is a message for all the people.
28. For those who wish to go straight.
Thus, GOD's sent us someone who didn't establish the correct laws:
18. We then appointed you to establish the correct laws; you shall follow this, and do not follow the wishes of those who do not know.
GOD terminated the life of His messenger before the complete delivery:
13:40. Whether we show you what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, your sole mission is to deliver (the message). It is us who will call them to account.
They have violated GOD's covenant and they will have to pay for this!!
25. As for those who violate GOD's covenant after pledging to keep it, and sever what GOD has commanded to be joined, and commit evil, they have incurred condemnation; they have incurred the worst destiny.
LA SOUMISSION to all
Salam aleykoum,
Thanks for the translation Konosuke. Indeed, it is really chocking. Saying such thing is truly... In fact, i cannot even find the words. They're saying that they believe in Rashad as a messenger, only for the 19 miracle. So according to them, his unique function was to deliver the 19 code. Just who are they to judge the mission of a messenger?So, they're waiting for a messenger, who's supposed to correct rashad's « mistakes ». How silly, GOD sends messengers to guide people, a messenger brings the guidance. This explains the fact that a messenger cannot deliver a message containing mistakes. I don't understand them, what's wrong with their logic? They're saying that they believe in rashad, yet they accept the message partially.
GASPARD to thirdmillenium and all
So if a true Messenger basically told his people now, that they should never bother learning the original "Arabic" of this heavenly Text and thus try to truthfully comprehend it; but they should only read his --somehow authorized?-- "English" version always after this instead, he must definitely have been "greatly mistaken," in the first place!
What did you mean by saying this? You don't think that rashad was a messenger? If you think so, then stop beating around the bush!
Did Aaron say to his people, that they shall worship the calf until Moses return? Such nonsenses!
Though I can clearly see in the Scripture that there must be a "Moses" (that real Messenger of Covenant) who is prophesied to come out surprisingly, suddenly and a short time after Rashad (please, see "Messenger of Covenant as prophesied by Isaiah & David & Jesus" topics) now;
but even if there were no "Moses" to come out now, again many sincere believers who already knew the basic easy Arabic of the Scripture (41/3 = 54/22) could clearly see some "unintentional" but dire mistakes in some of Rashad's approaches, and could correct them to some degree, according to genuine commandments of Almighty! (17/84 & 22/52-54) Remain in peace/salaam.
How interesting! « The real messenger of the covenant » heh? I'm sure they will find him perfect!
TCHOUPA to all:
3:81. GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom.
Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and
support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said,
"We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
GOD's talking about ONE confirming messenger. Did GOD make a mistake? Or is it just a spelling mistake? Well, why not...For them, the messenger of the covenant, rashad, was just a trial version, the official version will come out soon...
KONOSUKE to all:
A messenger is always on a straight path, and what he's preaching is a message from GOD. This is GOD system. Only those who harbor doubt in their heart won't understand it.
43:40. Can you make the deaf hear; can you make the blind see, or those who are far astray?
41. Whether we let you die before it or not, we will surely requite them.
42. Or, we may show you (the retribution) we promised for them. We are in full control over them.
43. You shall steadfastly preach what is revealed to you; you are in the right path.
44. This is a message for you and your people; all of you will be questioned.
45. Check the messengers we sent before you: "Have we ever appointed any other gods- beside the Most Gracious-to be worshiped?"
Our decision is already decreed for our servants the messengers. They are surely the victors.
http://islamission.forumactif.net/forum.htm
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| Re: Plain Questions to Edip Yuksel [message #55421 is a reply to message #55030] |
Tue, 16 February 2010 01:58 |
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ThirdMillenniuM
Messages: 323
Registered: October 2009
Location: MilkyWay = SamanYolu |
Thinker |
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Salaam Konosuke, and all friends,
K: So, according to your statement, the quran must be read in arabic and no translation can be authorized.
TM: Brother, first of all, perhaps you are not paying enough attention, and so maybe for this reason not correctly understanding what I actually mean in my previous posts. Here is what I basically said; so please, try to pay a little bit closer attention herein:
Almighty never "authorizes" any translation, in place of its fully "authorized" Arabic original, first of all, brother! (41/3 & 43/3) The Messenger, of course, must prepare a --truthful to its original-- translation; but also must encourage all --capable-- believers to use that translation as a tool, to learn --if they can-- its simple original Arabic --at least, in its most basic terms-- eventually, that they may easily ponder and comprehend it, mathematically and textually then by themselves, as it should thus be easily comprehended, by Almighty's great favor and help! (29/69 = 41/3 & 43/3 & 54/22 & 57/17 & 75/17-19 & ...)
K: Also, the messenger would have said things that GOD does not approve, but, who knows? Maybe GOD will forgive him (lol) or maybe he will go to hell, then he will be taken to the Paradise. But one shall never, ever follow the messenger's "wishful thinkings"! Wooow, you're really clever you know, i could almost bow down before such knowledge.
TM: Yes, brother, we must learn this most critical Subject directly from Almighty, first of all, and then all together bow down only before Him, each and every time, for our eternal salvation!
So please, certainly see the most critical Quranic Verses and related crucial Information in this regard again, herein:
http://19.org/forum/index.php/t/7808/1493/
K: First of all, GOD explains us that sincerity is the key, the language doesn't matter, even someone who know arabic very well cannot understand the quran. 41:44
TM: Almighty does not say: "Language doesn't matter!" first of all, brother; let's together pay real close attention again then to what Almighty may genuinely be saying herein, in this regard,
in the first place:
====
Certainly, we have made it an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan), that you may thus ponder and comprehend it (=ta'qeluuna)! (43/3)
This is a Scripture whose Verses are well-elucidated, as an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan) for a people who will thus know it (=ya'lamuuna)! (41/3)
====
Of course, Almighty must then also be clearly pointing out that an insincere Arap will never ponder and comprehend it, or truthfully know it, though he may know Arabic very well! (9/98)
So then the most correct and perfect formula for our eternal salvation herein must be:
Sincerity of the heart + basic Arabic of the Scripture (if we are capable; at least, in its most basic & simple terms; 54/22) == Basically well comprehending and thus truthfully knowing the Scripture mathematically and textually in ourselves, by Almighty's great favor and help! (29/69 = 41/3 & 43/3 & 54/22 & 57/17 & 75/17-19 & ...)
K: And GOD says that HE sends a messenger to preach in the tongue of his people.
[14:4] We did not send any messenger except (to preach) in the tongue of his people, in order to clarify things for them. GOD then sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. He is the Almighty, the Most Wise.
TM: Yes, brother, for that reason the real Messenger of Covenant --who is clearly prophesied to come suddenly and a short time after that "preparing the way" honorable Messenger R.K. (please, see Malachi 3/1-3 & Quran 37/130)-- shall be preaching to his people now in the tongue of his people (here basically in English) that:
O my people, please hearken to the voice of Almighty, what He authentically says to us herein:
====
Certainly, we have made it an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan), that you may thus ponder and comprehend it (=ta'qeluuna)! (43/3)
This is a Scripture whose Verses are well-elucidated, as an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan) for a people who will thus know it (=ya'lamuuna)! (41/3)
====
So please, --if you are capable-- sit and wholeheartedly try to learn the easy Arabic language of this Scripture --at least, in its most basic & simple terms-- that you may thus easily ponder and comprehend it, mathematically and textually then by yourselves, as it should thus be easily comprehended, by Almighty's great favor and help upon you, for your eternal benefits and salvation! (29/69 = 41/3 & 43/3 & 54/22 & 74/26-31 & 57/17 & 75/17-19 & ...)
please, see "ALKHABARU" (easy and modern Arabic style Quran text, as thus genuinely dictated by Almighty to His real Messenger of Covenant; 98/2) now herein:
http://www.holy-19-harvest.com/
But if you are in no way, not capable to learn not an Arabic letter of it, then he also made a --truthful to its original-- translation for you before this;
then please, read it, learn it, and follow it --as it will also give to all of you all the necessary preparatory & explanatory basic instructions (16/44) regarding the mathematical & textual aspects of Almighty's Commandments and genuine Message therein-- for your eternal salvation! (14/4 & 2/286 & 9/91 & ...)
please, see "THE TESTAMENT" document herein, in this regard:
http://www.holy-19-harvest.com/
K: Second of all, a believer never lies about GOD, and he never says that GOD's inspired him when it is not the case. GOD says that what the messengers promise us is the truth, unlike the Devil who promises us illusions. Is it too much of a wonder for them that GOD inspired a man?...
TM: Yes, but Almighty then also clearly explains that such a true Messenger can also sometimes think of what Satan throws into his heart, as if it were authentic inspirations from Almighty, and thus can also utter some such baseless "wishful-thinkings" in His Name... (Please, see again this link herein, to see some consequences of such "wisful-thinkings" for that Messenger, and for the believers after him.)
http://19.org/forum/index.php/t/7808/1493/
K: Though GOD said that the messenger is not crazy and that he is on the right path:
34:46. Say, "I ask you to do one thing: Devote yourselves to GOD, in pairs or as individuals, then reflect. Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy. He is a manifest warner to you, just before the advent of a terrible retribution."
34:48. Say, "My Lord causes the truth to prevail. He is the Knower of all secrets."
34:49. Say, "The truth has come; while falsehood can neither initiate anything, nor repeat it."
43:43. You shall steadfastly preach what is revealed to you; you are in the right path.*
TM: Because these Verses must primarily be referring to that real Messenger of Covenant --who is clearly prophesied to come suddenly and a short time after that "preparing the way" Messenger R.K. (Malachi 3/1-3 & Quran 37/130)-- and because that this real Messenger of Covenant shall have God given authority now to correct Rashad's basic mistakes, like Moses had God given authority to correct Aaron's basic mistakes (20/92-98), based upon the authentic Word of Almighty, the sincere believers may not have that much difficulty to comprehend these most critical Issues now.
And furthermore, to just see how the Name of this real Messenger of Covenant mathematically engraved now in the Scripture "under the Name of Almighty" in a magnificent way --that neither Rashad, nor any other this kind of Messenger in history were not coded in such a manner-- just as thus exactly been prophesied and foretold by honorable prophets David and Jesus and Muhammad about this specific real Messenger of Covenant now, may overwhelmingly be sufficient to persuade those sincere believers who would still have any doubts in their minds, in this regard!
http://19.org/forum/index.php/t/7882/0/
K: So Aaron would be responsible for the straying of the children of israel?? He asked them to refrain, but they didn't listen to him and he's been threaten with his life! He knew that he wasn't able to do something until Moses return, and he has never followed them!
20:90. And Aaron had told them, "O my people, this is a test for you. Your only Lord is the Most Gracious, so follow me, and obey my commands."
20:91. They said, "We will continue to worship it, until Moses comes back."
TM: Almighty must clearly be pointing out then Aaron's basic weaknesses and consequent some dire mistaken attitudes in this issue, within these following Verses:
===
Moses said to Aaron: Why didn't you follow me? Did you thus rebel against my command?
Aaron said: O son of my mother, do not pull me by my beard and by my head: Certainly, I was afraid that you would say: You thus divided the Sons of Israel, and you did not keep my command! (20/92)
===
=But a Messenger should have never been afraid for such an unwarranted reason, when there is such a dire danger of "idolatry" among the believers, first of all! And he should have already known this better than anyone else, and taken a firm stand against it no matter what, without being distracted by any kind of these lame excuses! (please, see 3/179 & 4/48 & ...)
===
and Moses took hold of his brother Aaron's head, pulling him towards himself, Aaron said: O son of my mother, certainly the people took advantage of my weakness and they would almost kill me... (7/150)
===
=But a Messenger should never have acted weak because of fear of being killed, first of all! And he should have already known this better than anyone else, and taken a courageous and firm stand against it no matter what, without being distracted by any kind of these weak excuses! (please, see 33/39 & 4/48 & ...)
So because of these --subconscious-- lame and weak excuses in his mind, Aaron thus consequently may have only taken an unconvincing and weak stand against this unforgivable Sin, and so many people would not be convinced but had to skip to the camp of other --in a bad sense & for a bad cause-- "courageous" stray guys, because of his direly mistaken assessment and consequent utterly wrong and weak actions and attitudes in this most critical Issue therein!
And probably, many believers thus had to follow him in that time frame --thinking that this apathetical attitude must have been a righteous and most correct attitude inspired to Aaron by Almighty, though it may have only been a "wishful-thinking" thus inspired to Aaron by Satan, in that specific Context as mentioned above; 22/52-54)
But when Moses came, he was very angry and upset initially, regarding Aaron's this fundamentally wrong decisions and attitudes, but then patiently and decisively corrected his dire mistakes with the right attitude thereupon immediately (20/92-98),
(*Also in Torah, it is emphasized that Almighty was also so angry and upset about Aaron's this fumdamentally wrong attitude, to the degree that He would almost kill him, instantly!)
but then Moses also sought forgiveness for himself and his brother Aaron's these dire mistakes immediately therein! (7/150-151) And so they are together forgiven, and now together among all those pure and honorable Messengers again, forever, after this! (37/120-122) But those who would not recognize Moses when he came back, and would still insist on following Aaron's that kind of mistaken attitudes based on "wishful-thinkings" could not be excused thereafter, forever! Definitely, the same would apply for today, this time in this specific Context! (22/52-55)
http://19.org/forum/index.php/t/7808/1493/
K: There are some lucky coincidences, i've been talking about this verse wich has been badly translated and i see that your translation isn't better! You really want to revert to the days of ignorance.
41:44 If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway."
...So, even from a purely logical point of view, anyone can see that Rashad's translation is correct.
TM: Let me repeat what I said in my previous post; and please, let us together pay real close attention herein, to clearly find out in the end, which of these may be more truthful to its original, and making more sense, without any contradiction, from the very beginning!
=====
This is a Scripture whose Signs are well-elucidated, as an Arabic Reading (=Quranan Arabeyyan) for a people who will thus know it (=ya'lamuuna)! (41/3)
XXXXX
Rashad's translation of (41/44) then
...Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a Guide and healing...
&&&&&
This translation of (41/44) then
...Should (that be) thus foreign, and (though it is) Arabic? Say: It --thus in its original Arabic-- is a "Guidance" and a Healing for the believers...
=====
We must first notice here that the term "Guidance" (=Hudan) used in (41/44) above is also basically an attribute of that authentic "19 code & system," first of all! (please, see 74/31 = 41/44; especially yahde/guide = hudan/guidance relation therein first) So where can we find this "Guidance" (=19 code & system) then, now?
=in Arabic original only?
as Almighty emphasized above in those two coherently connected Verses (41/3 = 41/44)!
=in Arabic original, or a non-Arabic translation also; it doesn't matter!
as Rashad thus implied in those of his two thus inadvertently disconnected --not truthful to its original-- translation of these two Verses (41/3 X 41/44)!
K: 3:81. GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom.
Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and
support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said,
"We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
GOD's talking about ONE confirming messenger. Did GOD make a mistake? Or is it just a spelling mistake? Well, why not...For them, the messenger of the covenant, rashad, was just a trial version, the official version will come out soon...
TM: Rashad must have been that "Elijah" who would prepare the way --and indeed, he successfully --though unknowingly-- well prepared it under Almighty's this kind of perfect rule and will (please, see Malachi 3/1-3 in this regard)--
*If he hadn't taken out that 9/128-129 from the Scripture herein, the Name of that real Messenger of Covenant now would not have been found in 4 logical steps as thus magnificently coded herein!
http://19.org/forum/index.php/t/7882/0/
before the real Messenger of Covenant, who would come suddenly and a short time after him. This must already be very clear in Malachi 3/1-3 & Matthew 17/11-12 & Quran 37/130) Please,
go again to that link above, and see these Verses more openly therein, in this regard.
And also you should definitely see this topic, brother, to clearly understand who could be this ONE real Messenger of Covenant now, who is solidly supported thus by all those major Prophets mentioned herein (3/81)!
http://19.org/forum/index.php/t/7868/0/
So let Almighty be our only and best Guide after this, in this most critical Issue, in this most critical Age, and forever! (26/78)
But no matter whatever you decide herein, in the end; remain, all, in peace/salaam on this earth, until we reach Him and He judges among us with His best judgment therein! (39/33-35 XX 39/56-60)
[Updated on: Tue, 16 February 2010 02:25]
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