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| Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47131] |
Thu, 01 May 2008 09:22  |
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 AMAZIGH
Messages: 6
Registered: September 2007
Location: TIZI OUZOU |
Beginner |
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Peace for all :
If we look at the verse 6 of chapter 5, we can read:
5 :6 oh you who believe, if you rise to perform prayer/connection/communion, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are in orgasm (intercourse), wash/clean yourself. And if you are ill, or travelling, or you have excreted, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you have not find water, wipe clean solid; wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَاةِ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُوا وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ مَرْضَىٰ أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاءَ أَحَدٌ مِنْكُمْ مِنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لَامَسْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَلَمْ تَجِدُوا مَاءً فَتَيَمَّمُوا صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُوا بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُمْ مِنْهُ مَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ مِنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَٰكِنْ يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهِّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ.
According to the above verse, if you have excreted or touched women, and you find not water you shall wash with clean solid, but if there is water shall bath even if you are only excreted, since sexual intercourse and excretion are in same level.
The most translators render ightassilou an ittahirou “bath”, and most muslim do not bath after excretion. We feel all the impurity after orgasm but not after excretion, why?!
There is also another verse:
2:222
And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.
I have never seen people wait until their women bath to do intercourse but, menstruation end and wash the dirty.
2:222
وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْمَحِيضِ قُلْ هُوَ أَذًى فَاعْتَزِلُوا النِّسَاءَ فِي الْمَحِيضِ وَلَا تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ حَتَّىٰ يَطْهُرْنَ فَإِذَا تَطَهَّرْنَ فَأْتُوهُنَّ مِنْ حَيْثُ أَمَرَكُمُ اللَّهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ التَّوَّابِينَ وَيُحِبُّ الْمُتَطَهِّرِينَ
There is another verse 4:43:
O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know what you say, nor when you are in orgasm -- unless (you are) travelling -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
4 :43
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَقْرَبُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَأَنْتُمْ سُكَارَىٰ حَتَّىٰ تَعْلَمُوا مَا تَقُولُونَ وَلَا جُنُبًا إِلَّا عَابِرِي سَبِيلٍ حَتَّىٰ تَغْتَسِلُوا وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ مَرْضَىٰ أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاءَ أَحَدٌ مِنْكُمْ مِنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لَامَسْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَلَمْ تَجِدُوا مَاءً فَتَيَمَّمُوا صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُوا بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَفُوًّا غَفُورًا.
In this verse jounaben (orgasm) is taken lonely, but intercourse and excretion are in same level.
God advised us to do intercourse when we would with our wives (2:223), and Our lord told us that there is no difficulty in His system. In my opinion if intercourse involve bath it’s a difficulty especially in cold area with no means.
I am not good in English, I would have exposed more in detail this topic, I hope that you can decrypt my message and I wait your comments.
Peace upon those who follow guidance.
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| Re: Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47144 is a reply to message #47131 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 11:37  |
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Peace.
Quran is revealed for all generation beyond end of world. The messages for time and location. Hygienic messages are for those living with not enough water to take daily or second daily shower with colorized and clean water. Messages are time and location. I think those messages are for condition you live in desert with minimum water available and no bathing for weeks not for those that bathing daily and do their bathing after sex without referring to books due to knowledge in granted brain.
Many rules and laws of Quran belongs to past and there messages for future too.
Peace.
Al-Qur'un The Ultimate Miracle.
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| Re: Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47149 is a reply to message #47131 ] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 13:46 |
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I will first say that from feedback I get, answers do not always result in people practicing them. Seeking answers can be a good way to fulfil some form of entertainment or even emptiness. So people asking questions should not be made to feel stupid or fools. On the other hand acting stupid or foolish is different.
To find answers could be easy. I have found in the Quran verses comprising of object, subject and consequence. Stability in the brain is a talent in linking the subject and consequnce to the object: "O you who believe.."
So from this verse depending on the depth of submission to God and faith a person acts on the verses accordingly.
Those who are little in faith and tend to compromise their belief, will orgasm and not clean, bath or whatever thinking God will forgive them regardless.
Those who are committed to God at the highest level will orgasm and then shower immediately without hesitation.
The angels record all actions of the human whether the present is before, during or after. With this in mind the ranking of people in Gods Eyes is the only thing that matters. Those who have a lot of motivation shown by their commitment to the commandments of God will be rewarded with more energy and motivation.
Some will wake up in the morning feeling burdened by the world and resort to more sleeping thinking it will get better. Others will spring into life without any fear with the loving support from God that they can take on anything and everything.
As for washing without water, since it is mentioned in the Quran it will be experienced by every human once or more in their lifetime. People tend to think if they have access to clean water then it is something guaranteed for life. No its not.
Using the earth or soil to wash will be bourne out from a sequence of calamities directed by God. Someone you know, a friend or relative may become very ill and you have to visit them. You go but did not expect unfamiliar territory or environment. The bus you are travelling breaks down and its time to prayer and you drank all the water you had. What do you in this circumstance? Do prayer without doing tayamum expecting the best or do tayamum and then prayer? Or do you not prayer at all?
It may be an open or philosophical answer but based on your faith and motivation you will reflect and act accordingly under such a circumstance.
Peace upon those who decide to follow guidance.
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| Re: Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47270 is a reply to message #47193 ] |
Sat, 17 May 2008 02:11 |
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Well in the new testament Jesus mentions a debacle creature of God referred as the unclean spirits . These creatures are known to us as jinns.
They make up any excuse to be unclean. When the decision is made everything goes wrong for them and no is there to help them. Who wants to help disgusting creatures?
You can see them from a distance, they are ugly as sin.
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| Re: Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47281 is a reply to message #47131 ] |
Sun, 18 May 2008 07:29 |
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AMAZIGH
Messages: 6
Registered: September 2007
Location: TIZI OUZOU |
Beginner |
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peace up on you, thank you for your replys.
what i have done in my message is only underlining Gods words related to what is obligation if we are under orgasm, God advised us to wash ourselves after orgasm and excretion, God's message is clear. but most muslim render it bath by their fabrication, hadith and sunna, we must liberate our minds in such slavery, The quran is complete.
[22:78] You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen
you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. He is the one who named you "Submitters" originally. Thus, the messenger shall serve as a witness among you, and you shall serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and hold fast to GOD; He is your Lord, the best Lord and the best Supporter.
i have only seen hardship in practicing bath after each orgasm, and i have also noted that excretion and orgasm are in verse 5:6 tooken by God in same level, my question why?
us for level of spiritualité in faith, congratulation my brother MembersoftheHigh_assembly, give your proof if you are right.even one verses in God's book.
[6:117] Your Lord is fully aware of those who stray off His path, and He is fully aware of those who are guided.
we are in this forum for studie God's scripture, and fight togother the devil who is our sole ennemi, so invite to the way whith wisdom, God will surely set the truth with His words, even if some hate.43:78 but many hate the truth.
whene i studie a topic in quran, i stand neutre without bias until ireach the conclusion, i always aske the MOst knowlegeble to increase my knowledge.
in my head i knew that Quran contains all answer for all things and patience is the best weapon against evil, God love strivers in his cause.
many submitters or quran aloner fall in the trappe ancient tales and tradition, purification by the livinng God's word is needed, We ask God to increase our knowledge and guide us to His path.
peace
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| Re: Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47286 is a reply to message #47281 ] |
Sun, 18 May 2008 15:28 |
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Cleaning is under ablution. Using water to wash clean your hands etc.
Bathing is a different matter altogether. After orgasm/junuban you cannot just clean with water. It must be a full bath eg a shower or with water that is running.
To understand it is obvious. Why because you eliminate some factors.
1. In every situation before prayer you must do ablution and do not need to bathe.
2. In rarer situations before prayer you must not only do ablution but also bathe becuase had orgasm.
Why does God say to do ablution and also say to do bathing after sexual orgasm? Why does not God just tell us to do ablution under all conditions, excretion or sexual orgasm?
It is possible only to do ablution after sexual orgasm. Eg you have sexual intercourse and before prayer time you only need to clean yourself via ablution.
However God implicitly mentions another form of cleaning after sexual orgasm and this form of cleaning is not the ablution. It is bathing. So when you have orgasm you not only do ablution but also bathe before prayer. This is obvious to me.
Why does God bother to write two types of cleaning for the two types of scenarios? Is God writing this to kill time? No because you are unclean before prayer so you must do ablution. You are more unclean after orgasm/intercourse so you must bathe.
Excretion is mainly taken to be fecal or urine. In orgasm men excrete semen. Women orgasm and excrete moister. Although this is not a strong connection it should show some comparison.
If you shower then you simply perform the action of ablution as the water is running. It would be laughable if someone has a full shower then gets out and does ablution lol. I know this happens to people. It is called OCD - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
And by the way I cannot find "ightassilou an ittahirou" in verse 5:6. This description is only (ONLY) in 4:43. I therefore believe you must review what you have written and explain how you got "ightassilou an ittahirou" in 5:6!!
The ultimate subject for the believer in this verse is to be appreciative.
[5:6]
O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
Also there is no "system" mentioned. God makes the religion easy for us if we are appreciative to Him. I am always appreciative to God for blessing me with a hot shower. If I continued to be unappreciative to Him, He will take away the hot shower and the religion will be difficult for me. E.g. I will be evicted from this house to a house that is inferior with mediocre cleaning facilities.
Your main complaint (to God?) just as with tarikh was that there is hardship to do full bathe after orgasm. So you rendered some translations to make things easy for yourself. Here are some verses which by all means encompass hardships with bathing:
[6:42]
We have sent (messengers) to communities before you, and we put them to the test through adversity and hardship, that they may implore.
[94:5-6]
With pain there is gain. Indeed, with pain there is gain.
[10:107]
If GOD touches you with a hardship, none can relieve it except He. And when He blesses you, no force can prevent His grace. He bestows it upon whomever He chooses from among His servants. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[4:147]
What will GOD gain from punishing you, if you became appreciative and believed? GOD is Appreciative, Omniscient.
[27:73]
Your Lord is full of grace towards the people, but most of them are unappreciative.
[22:38]
GOD defends those who believe. GOD does not love any betrayer, unappreciative.
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| Re: Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47288 is a reply to message #47131 ] |
Sun, 18 May 2008 19:48 |
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tarikh
Messages: 24
Registered: October 2007
Location: Mauritius |
Beginner |
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Peace all
to backup his arguments, mr member of high assembly has found nothing better to mention the new testament, whilst claiming to follow quran ALONE. He refers to unclean spirits whom he calls jinn. Well, in sura 72, we read that jinn also followed the quran...
To come back to the subject, mr member claims that quran says we must absolutely have a complete bath after orgasm. But he fails to answer whether this includes hair too. Also if we must bath when we have orgasm, that's fine, but does this include the situation where a couple have sex but DO NOT have orgasm? Women and men moister EVEN when they do not have orgasm, so according to the interpretation of mr member, they dont have to bath themselves since they did not have orgasm.
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| Re: Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47293 is a reply to message #47288 ] |
Mon, 19 May 2008 00:27 |
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I refer to you my opening sentence:
"I will first say that from feedback I get, answers do not always result in people practicing them."
You have taken it on a personal level. I cannot help you nor can I guide you in any way. If you want answers then refer to the Quran alone. Don't rely on me.
I mentioned showering as a form of bathing. I'm sure in this day an age people know what a shower is. I didn't you had the skills of dodging the water under a shower to avoid washing your hair.
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| Re: Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47360 is a reply to message #47286 ] |
Sat, 24 May 2008 07:59 |
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AMAZIGH
Messages: 6
Registered: September 2007
Location: TIZI OUZOU |
Beginner |
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peace for all.
[5:6]
O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
mr member of high assembly, God said to us to wash ourselves after orgasm and excretion, He has not told us to bath, thus i inderstund like sun shining what i will do, if i have long hair it's unecessary to clean my hai if they are already clean.
complete bath is only in hadith and sunna, and if you follow quran alone, you must bath after excretion since they are in same level in verse 5:6 i colored the operator logical or (aw).
us for ablutio God detailled the step, befor each prayer, (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and 4 your feet to the ankles.
God never said that we shal wash all your body.
Tarikh had reason, you have not given the argument to wash all body.
Complete bath is a hardship, God do not allow hardship in religion, but if we clean what is unclean only, all become evident that God Would purifie us.
thank you
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| Re: Do we bath after orgasm or only wash what is dirty. [message #47408 is a reply to message #47360 ] |
Tue, 27 May 2008 13:04 |
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All I can say that i pray you have found the answer to your question.
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