Home » English » General Discussions » Which is the Real Quran?
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19039 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Tue, 01 February 2005 12:18   |
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Salam,
Actually RK's version is based on the hafs version with the exception of the two verses 9:128&129. Be4 the hafs was the most authentic. U can forget abt warsh n others. GOD Bless!
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19331 is a reply to message #19244 ] |
Mon, 07 February 2005 08:07 |
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| famar wrote on Sun, 06 February 2005 08:40 |
Lyath,
Warsh is not a different Qur'An. Due to diffrerent recitations the lettering is different in vvarious traditions.
You guys are mixing the punctuation and recitation with the menaing and wording. For example if there is a word written as MLK in the original writing. Some read this as Malak and added harakah according to this reading and some read this word as Malik and added harkah according to this reading. But no one has changed the roiginal MLK. There fore there are not many Qur'Ans including warsh. But there are many different recitations.
One thing about warsh though even trhough there are same ayahs in that Qur'An some ayahs in the others was connected to each other making one ayah. So even though ayah count is different the contents are the same due to some ayahs in the hafs are connected to each other making one ayah out of two ayahs.
Rashad Khalifah issue is different. He suggested to extract two ayahs from the end of surah 9. NOw his suggest9ion caused a different Qur'An in the history of Muslims. But definitely he made a mistake by doing that so.
So your poll should be like this;
Which Qur'An is right;
Rashad Khalifah's or the rest.
famar.
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Khi- Rashad's which is based on the hafs with the excetion of 9:128&129. GOD Bless!
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19400 is a reply to message #19396 ] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 11:23 |
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Dear Layth:
A very informative and well presented article! Mashallah. English speakers may find similar information in the beginning of Muhammad Hamidullah's translation.
It has always been my position that the words and letters of the Quran should be considered with no dots and diatrical marks. We might be able to read a word in more than one way, then we should accept all those readings as Quranic. However, if one reading contradicts another verse, then the consistent reading should be chosen.
I could give a few example from my Turkish translation in which I preferred a different reading. Inshallah later.
As for differences involving addition annd subtraction of words or phrases, I believe we can critcally evaluate the issue and use the mathematical structure of the Quran if it involves (sure, with our limited knowledge of it) to reach a decision.
Inshallah, we will discuss each difference in the side notes of the Reformist Translation.
I did not read all the article but I browsed it and I found in the end an excellent suggestion how to deal with the problem. I am in agreement with you on that suggestion and congratulate you for your research skills, clearity in reasoning, attitude in research, and courage to damand evidence and reason for commonly held beliefs.
Peace,
Edip
[Updated on: Tue, 08 February 2005 11:29]
Edip Yuksel; J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
www.islamicreform.org
19@19.org
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19402 is a reply to message #19396 ] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 11:34 |
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peace dear Layth .
is this article available in some other format . pdf are not working on my pc . u got this article in word format ?
peace.
my blog!
www.RationalReality.com , www.IIPC.tv
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19403 is a reply to message #19396 ] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 11:45 |
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Khi- Salam. I went through the article. Wht abt the word 'Rahman'? U havent mentioned tht. If u dont count verse 1:1 as bismillah then Alrahman count goes down to 56(not ZMN). So bro it doesnt work all fine with warsh. GOD Bless!
[Updated on: Tue, 08 February 2005 12:12]
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19408 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 12:38 |
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Peace,
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Khi- Salam. I went through the article. Wht abt the word 'Rahman'? U havent mentioned tht. If u dont count verse 1:1 as bismillah then Alrahman count goes down to 56(not ZMN). So bro it doesnt work all fine with warsh. GOD Bless!
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Doesn't it?
I didn't want to give everything away in the article 
The count works perfectly...
Here is the clue:
What other word did Rashad have a problem with that was never resolved correctly?
What is the connection between the two?
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19409 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 12:39 |
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Peace,
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is this article available in some other format . pdf are not working on my pc . u got this article in word format ?
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Sorry, the Word format is over 5MB which makes it awkward to upload.
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19509 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 02:41 |
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Peace,
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But the argument is about 9:128-129.
You claim by your method is not necessary to remove those verse as the number of God and vases will multiple of 19. Khi has found that such changes could damage other interlocks with number of Rahman divisible of 19.
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More damage is actually being done mathematically when you remove those words from the Quran (note I do not refer to them as 'verses' since that is now an arbitrary definition).
The count of the word 'Allah' is corrected.
The count of the word 'Raheem' is corrected.
The count of the word 'Rahman' is corrected (yes, 56 is the correct count, not 57).
'Rahman' is marked directly with the word 'Quran' in 55:1-2.
Rahman = 56, Quran = 58
Rahman 'complements' Quran = 114 (total number of chapters)
To get over the problem created by miscounting 'Rahman', Rashad's count had to state that the 'Quran' count is "57" which is not correct and never has been.
Do not use the word 'verses' as if they refer to text and cannot be sepereated. We know now for a fact that we can have different verse counts while retaining the entire text as is.
I can say that Chapter 9 has 127 verse stops without having to touch the text...
However, the answer to how many verse 'stops' has not been answered in the article I posted and still has a way to go (so you are pre-empting the discussion).
My initial review of this matter shows that the true count appears to be a combination of all the different verse counts and not just one.
There is still way to go before we will know for sure...But in my opinoin that is where to start.
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Let us presume that you will be able to use your method for those files!
But the problem is not ended because authenticity of those verses are questionable when one of Quranic attributes of GOD
when Raheem is used for human .
Do you think that God here wanted to give same weight of His to Mohammed?
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Ibrahim is called 'Haleem' 9:114, 11:75.
And so is God 5:101.
Does that mean Ibrahim and God are equal?
God is not just 'Raheem' in the Basmalla, He is 'AL-Raheem'.
Mohammed, or any human, can be 'Raheem'.
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19513 is a reply to message #19509 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 03:31 |
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| Quote: |
More damage is actually being done mathematically when you remove those words from the Quran (note I do not refer to them as 'verses' since that is now an arbitrary definition).
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Khi- Salam. We shall see GW. N by no means is the verse numbering an arbitrary selection, at least not 4 me.
[quote title]
The count of the word 'Allah' is corrected.
The count of the word 'Raheem' is corrected.
The count of the word 'Rahman' is corrected (yes, 56 is the correct count, not 57).
Khi- False. All the words in the Bismillah have 2 be a multiple of 19. If not then the greatest of all phenmena is destroyed. Didnt u know tht thte GVs of ONLY 4 Names of GOD in Quan correspond exactly 2 the counts of the 4 words in the Bismillah? They r Zul Fadlil Azeem(2698, corresponding 2 Allah), Jam'i(114, corresponding 2 Raheem), Majeed(57, corresponding 2 Rahman) n Wahid(19, corresponding 2 Ism n Shaheed). Also plz visit:
http://www.submission.org/miracle/miracle19x.html
n see the undeniable mathematical relation in which the word 'Bism' divids the Quran into three parts.
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'Rahman' is marked directly with the word 'Quran' in 55:1-2.
Rahman = 56, Quran = 58
Rahman 'complements' Quran = 114 (total number of chapters)
To get over the problem created by miscounting 'Rahman', Rashad's count had to state that the 'Quran' count is "57" which is not correct and never has been.
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Khi- Wht u have done above is arbitrary selection. Btw did u know tht in counting the word 'Quran' RK did not count 'Quranan' which was done in the count of 'Raheem' 2 get 57. Bro Edip thererfore also refuted the count of 'Quran' 2 be 57. Although i do have my reasons 2 accept this count of Quran 2 be 57 im honest 2 pt out tht the count maybe controversial. 2ndly ur cobination of Rahman with Quran is a complete out of the blue arbitrary selection. If ud have used 'Kareem' or 'Majeed' which r actually attributes of the Quran then we cld have talked abt it but even then it wld have been an arbitrary selection.
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Do not use the word 'verses' as if they refer to text and cannot be sepereated. We know now for a fact that we can have different verse counts while retaining the entire text as is.
I can say that Chapter 9 has 127 verse stops without having to touch the text...
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Khi- 2day the most popular is the hafs version n "coincidentally" the verse count, word count, etc RK used supported tht version perfectly wwith the exception of 9:128-129. So obviously the verse numbering was Divine plan n this was perfectly shown through code-19.
[quote title]
However, the answer to how many verse 'stops' has not been answered in the article I posted and still has a way to go (so you are pre-empting the discussion).
[/quoe]
Khi- We dont care 2 find verse stops anymore. The code-19 is in harmony with the Quranic verses so tht job is done.
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My initial review of this matter shows that the true count appears to be a combination of all the different verse counts and not just one.
There is still way to go before we will know for sure...But in my opinoin that is where to start.
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Khi- As ive said hr verse counts r now in complete harmony.
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Ibrahim is called 'Haleem' 9:114, 11:75.
And so is God 5:101.
Does that mean Ibrahim and God are equal?
God is not just 'Raheem' in the Basmalla, He is 'AL-Raheem'.
Mohammed, or any human, can be 'Raheem'.
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Khi- I know tht n even Joseph was called 'Al-Azeez' in Quran which is also an attribute of GOD. But Rahman n Raheem r UNIQUE attributes of GOD 4 they r the ONLY ones mentioned in the Bismillah. GOD Bless!
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19526 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 05:22 |
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Peace all,
I believe that the version of Rashad Khalifa is the correct one, based on Hafs version. The following configuration is what convinces me:
The Shell
- 114 suras = 19x6
- 6234 + 112 verses = 6346 or 19x334
The number 6+3+4+6 = 19 , thus the probability of getting any 19 multiple whose sum of the digit is 19 is not so high
(from 1 to 10000 there are 33 numbers which possess this property)
- The sum of verses in the first 19 suras is: 2346
Note: 6234 is the 19th permutation of 2346
- Definition: a sura is homogenous, when its number is odd and the number of its verses is also odd, or when its number is
even and the number of its verses is also even.
a sura is heterogenous, when it is not homogenous.
There are 57 homogenous suras.
There are 57 heterogenous suras.
- The sum of the sura numbers + the verse numbers in the homogenous area only: 6234 (the same as the total amount of
numbered verses in the Quran)
- The sum of the sura numbers + the verse numbers in the heterogenous area only: 6555 (the same as the sum of the numbers
from 1 to 114) ....
For example Sura 3 is heterogenous because it has 200 verses. If it had 198 verses only (for example) then it would be still heterogenous, but the sum of the heterogenous area will be 6553 which has nothing to do with 6555 or ∑ N (N from 1 to 114) or 19x345. Anyone can try random configurations for 114 chapters and see how difficult it is to get such configuration by random choice
- The Sigma notation ∑ (also called summation notation) is shorthand for
summing a series. The expression to the right of the Sigma is the
formula that you plug each number in the series into.
Now we can apply following function on each sura:
f(sura) = S + V + Sigma(1 to verse numbers)
f(sura) = S + V + ∑ N (where N is from 1 to V)
S: sura no.
V: number of verses in the sura
This function means: we add the sura number, the number of verses in this sura and the sum of the numbers from 1 to the
number of verses in this sura.
For sura 1 we get:
f(1) = 1 + 7 + (1+2+3+...+7) = 1 + 7 + 28 = 36
The sum of the 114 resulting numbers when applying this function to all 114 suras is 346199 or 19x18221 or 19x19x959.
This is not a coincidence or a game of luck:
- if we apply this function to initialed suras only, then we get as a grand sum: 190133 or 19x10007
- if we apply this function to non-initialed suras only, then we get as a grand sum: 156066 or 19x8214
- The Sigma from 1 to N, where N is multiple of 19 is also a multiple of 19
e.g: 1+2+3+4+....+112+113+114 is a multiple of 19 because 114 is a multiple of 19
114
----- N
\ ---
\ \
/ / M = 253460 or 19x13340
/ ---
------ M=1
N=1
(where N from 1 to 114 and M from 1 to N)
- This formula works also if we restrict the N to the set of initialed sura numbers; i.e. Ne( 2,3,7,10,11,12,13,14,15,19,20,
26,27,28,29,30,31,32,36,38,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,50,68 ), the grand sum will be: 15675 or 19x825
- This formula works also if we restrict N to numbers from 1 to 114 and not a number of an initialed suras, the grand sum will be: 237785 or 19x12515
- we know that 1/19= 0,052631578947368421052631578947368
The number 5263 is the amount of verses from 2:1 (first initial) to 68:1 (last initial)
- Sura 74 starts with O Hidden! (74:1) and 741=19x39 but, this is also the number of verses from 74:1 to 114:6 (End of
Quran)
- In the Quran there are 30 different integer numbers mentioned: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50,000, & 100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, or 19x8534.
The distribution of the word "ALLAH"
- simply we create a table with 2 columns:
S | V
------
1 | 1
1 | 2
... ...
-------------
- the sum of the sura column: 39045 or 19x2055
- the sum of the verse column: 118123 or 19x6217
- Verse, who are assigned to numbers multiple of 19 in the quran are: 19, 38, 57, 76, 95, 114, 133, 152, 171, 190, 209, 228, 247, 266, 285
In such verses the word ALLAH occurs 133 times or 19x7
The Basmalah
- This expression consists of 19 letters
- Now the following function alone is enough to be showing how hard the design of the basmalah can be :
f(exp) = seq(word) ^ X
for each word: concatenate the sequence of the word in the expression, then concatenate X
X: will be many different input values (see below)
for Basmalah: 1 X 2 X 3 X 4 X
- X: is the number of letters ==> 13243646 = 19 x 19 x 36686
- X: is the GV of the word ==> 110226633294289 = 19 x 5801401752331
- X: is the GV of each single letter: 12 60 4021 30 30 531 30 200 8 40 5041 30 200 8 10 40 = 19 x 66336954226595422109686863843162160
- X: is the number of letters from beginning of the expression to the end of the word: 1327313419 = 19 x 69858601
- X: is the total GV of the letters from beginning of the expression to the end of the word: 1102216834974786 = 19 x 58011412367094
- X: is a sum of the number of letters and the GV of the word: 110527033354295 = 19 x 5817212281805
This is alone a very hard task for someone who wants to make a similar configuration!
Now the basmala has few properties which should be mentioned here:
- The word Bism is written differently (B S M) instead of (B A S M) as in many other places (56:74, 56:96, 69:52, 96:1)
- The basmala occurs 2 times with a verse number assigned to it.
- For the words: Allah Alrahman Alraheem we have GV of 684 or 19x36
- Each of the 4 words:
- ISM 19 occurances (+ 3 occurances of BSM)
- Allah: 2698
- Alrahman: 57
- Alraheem: 114
- If we try to find how many verses contain one of more of these words, we find: 1919 verses
- The word 3 occurances of bism in numbered verses split the whole 6346 verses of the quran into 3 parts
The number of verses in each part is:
- part 1: from 1:1 to 11:40 has 1520 verses or 19x80
- part 2: from 11:41 to 27:29 has 1691 verses or 19x89
- part 3: from 27:30 to 114:6 has 3135 verses or 19x165
Now if we multiply the probabilities of each of the features mentioned in this document and multiply the probability
of the initialed suras, and take into consideration features as:
- 365 occurances of yawm, yawma
- 30 occurances of yawmaan, yawmayn, ayaam
- 12 occurances of month
- 19 occurances of years
- earth, sun and moon align on the same line each 19 years and see in the quran that sun and moon are mentioned in the same verse together 19 times.
and that there are mathematical balances in the occurances of words like :
Dunia (this world) <115> Akhira (the hereafter)
Shaytan (any form of the word) <88> malaika (any form of the word)
etc..
we will understand that this is a very well intended design which can not be immitated.
This also demonstrates, that the word Sura is not just a chapter of a collection of verses, but a sura is a part of a complex mathematical configuration.
Who can calculate the probability for the above configuration in a statistical manner?
Best regards,
Mohamed
P.S.: I posted the same article at free-minds: http://free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39169
[Updated on: Thu, 10 February 2005 07:03]
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19532 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 06:19 |
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Dear Mohamad,
Salam
Masha Allah for your work.
I am impressed . Thank you for sharing this information,
May God bless you,
Noor
(17:84) Say, Everyone works in accordance with his belief and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path.
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19536 is a reply to message #19532 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 07:05 |
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Salam Noor,
thanks, however this is not my work. I've just organised the information available and grouped related findings together, to show that (according to what i see & understand) this is indeed an intended design containing many mathematical patterns, which are very hard (if not impossible) to find or to step on them by luck.
Best regards,
Mohamed
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19540 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 07:56 |
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Peace,
| Quote: |
Khi- False. All the words in the Bismillah have 2 be a multiple of 19. If not then the greatest of all phenmena is destroyed. Didnt u know tht thte GVs of ONLY 4 Names of GOD in Quan correspond exactly 2 the counts of the 4 words in the Bismillah? They r Zul Fadlil Azeem(2698, corresponding 2 Allah), Jam'i(114, corresponding 2 Raheem), Majeed(57, corresponding 2 Rahman) n Wahid(19, corresponding 2 Ism n Shaheed).
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My friend,when dealing with God's word you should never say has to be...He does what He pleases and we follow from there...We do not force the results nor do we follow our 'hawa' (desire).
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Khi- Wht u have done above is arbitrary selection.
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You mean like the decision to count only words insidethe Basmallas since the count does not produce the results desired?
Or you mean like changing to count the Basmallas when dealing with the letter/initials because that is what gives the desired results?
You want to talk facts, neither Allah, nor Rahman, nor Raheem give a count divisible by 19 if you apply it to the whole Quran as it is 'claimed' to have been revealed (even after Rashad's deletion of words).
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Btw did u know tht in counting the word 'Quran' RK did not count 'Quranan' which was done in the count of 'Raheem' 2 get 57. Bro Edip thererfore also refuted the count of 'Quran' 2 be 57. Although i do have my reasons 2 accept this count of Quran 2 be 57 im honest 2 pt out tht the count maybe controversial. 2ndly ur cobination of Rahman with Quran is a complete out of the blue arbitrary selection. If ud have used 'Kareem' or 'Majeed' which r actually attributes of the Quran then we cld have talked abt it but even then it wld have been an arbitrary selection.
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You acknowledge the count of Quran is not 57...That is a start.
If you mean that 55:1-2 is an 'arbitrary' link and that I have to find only a link that you have approved (which you also did from the Quranic text - sighting 'Majeed', and 'Kareem'), then I have nothing more to add in this regards.
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Khi- 2day the most popular is the hafs version n "coincidentally" the verse count, word count, etc RK used supported tht version perfectly wwith the exception of 9:128-129. So obviously the verse numbering was Divine plan n this was perfectly shown through code-19.
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Popular does not mean 'correct' (else we'd all be Christians or Hadith followers by now since that is 'popular').
As for the verse counts, I really do not want to get into a discussion on that now since I am still reviewing all the oprions on this matter...
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Khi- We dont care 2 find verse stops anymore. The code-19 is in harmony with the Quranic verses so tht job is done.
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We have been commanded to verify...If you are content with what you have, then that is good for you...I for one seek truth, not what is popular or what my desire would like to follow.
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Khi- I know tht n even Joseph was called 'Al-Azeez' in Quran which is also an attribute of GOD. But Rahman n Raheem r UNIQUE attributes of GOD 4 they r the ONLY ones mentioned in the Bismillah. GOD Bless!
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AL-Rahman and AL-Raheem are not Rahman and Raheem...Let's be precise in what we say.
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19551 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 10:39 |
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Peace Edip,
I will take you up on the tea offer 
My intent was not to be dragged into a discusion as I believe the data/information is still relatively limited and nowhere near enough to draw any conclusions...
God willing as more information/understanding becomes available, so then will this issue be resolved.
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19552 is a reply to message #19551 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 11:00 |
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Dear Layth:
I think, we need to focus on the project we are working on it. I was expecting a signed letter from you. I would like give you a mail address so that you could mail it to me.
If you have yahoo or msn messenger Or paltalk please let me know.
Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel; J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
www.islamicreform.org
19@19.org
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19553 is a reply to message #19552 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 11:38 |
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Salaam brother Edip:
I may offer if this discussion or debate could be preformed on the line using voice by one of those messengers. I would like to record it and publish it in this tread . If you set up time and announce it with your id then members interested could join as listener too.
Peace.
Al-Qur'un The Ultimate Miracle.
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19589 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Thu, 10 February 2005 23:02 |
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I think postponing discussing this issue to a face-to-face meeting might not be a good idea. We can do it via MSN messenger or paltalk.
However, I prefer discussing the issue with Layth alone. Why? I value Layth's knowledge, sincerity, and dedication to serve God, and I do not want turn our debate on this subject to a public show. I want this discussion to be a mind-to-mind, heart-to-heart exchange of ideas, without the distraction or pressure of audiance.
So brother Layth, please let me know which program you prefer for voice chat, and the times you will be available for discussion.
Peace,
Edip
[Updated on: Thu, 10 February 2005 23:06]
Edip Yuksel; J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
www.islamicreform.org
19@19.org
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19704 is a reply to message #19037 ] |
Sat, 12 February 2005 23:49 |
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Peace Edip,
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So brother Layth, please let me know which program you prefer for voice chat, and the times you will be available for discussion.
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If it is not a problem, I would rather have such a discussion in a text format to enable me to review and think through the arguments and data being presented more clearly.
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19705 is a reply to message #19704 ] |
Sun, 13 February 2005 00:02 |
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I think some of the issues we can discuss and understand without putting them in writing. I believe that a part of this discussion can be better and more efficiently done orally rather in writing.
Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel; J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
www.islamicreform.org
19@19.org
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19706 is a reply to message #19705 ] |
Sun, 13 February 2005 00:30 |
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Peace All,
For those who don't know Skype:
This programm is great and I recommend it for such tele-conferences. Its Voice Quality is very high and on quick connections it can be as good as the voice quality of the celullar phone.
It also enables text chat and file sending, so its the best choice for people who want to make a mixture of clear voice chat and text chat
It can allow up to 4 people in the same conversation. We tested it with 3 persons and the quality of voice and speed of transmission didn't suffer at all.
Best regards,
Mohamed
[Updated on: Sun, 13 February 2005 00:33]
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19709 is a reply to message #19706 ] |
Sun, 13 February 2005 00:57 |
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I have received high recommendations from others too. I am going to download Skype and inshallah invite others to share it with me.
Thank you for your recommendation.
Peace,
Edip
Edip Yuksel; J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
www.islamicreform.org
19@19.org
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| Re: Which is the Real Quran? [message #19711 is a reply to message #19709 ] |
Sun, 13 February 2005 01:11 |
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It was my wife who discovered this program. I was lazy to test it and since she doesn't know much about computers and internet I thought its just another shareware programm and she's just happy to hear some voices.
She was pushing me many days to use it and when i finally gave up and tested it, and it was my surprise. Now I can finally communicate with my family and my friends in other countries with a quality similar to the cellular phone!
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Current Time: Sat Jul 5 05:30:30 MST 2008
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Brother Khier can be a good host for chat .