Today's Messages (ON)
| Unanswered Messages (OFF)
| Forum: General Discussions |
|---|
| Topic: ATTENTION ALL CODE 19 DISCOVERERS: Please share your failures |
|---|
| Re: ATTENTION ALL CODE 19 DISCOVERERS: Please share your failures [message #47647 is a reply to message #47645 ] |
Sat, 05 July 2008 00:13 |
 |
 ayman
Messages: 101
Registered: April 2005
Location: USA |
Reader |
|
|
Peace HED,
| HED wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 16:16 |
NO. The word "3dtihim" as it occurs in 74:31 has an other occurence in 18:22.
Everybody can see here that "3dthim suits perfectly with "their number/their total".
|
Why don’t you look up all the occurrences of the word “3idat”? 18:22 uses “3idat” to indicate a count from possible alternative estimates, not a number on its own. Moreover, 33:49 makes it clear that the meaning of "3idat" is certainly not "number" since the divorced women do not owe a "number" but they owe a "count". They have to count three menstrual cycles. Similarly, 65:1 talks about being accurate with the count/3idat/ عِدَّةَ. There is nothing accurate or inaccurate about any number. Accuracy becomes an issue only when there is measurement (i.e. counting). We also see that 3idat/ عِدَّةَ is what we measure/count out of a larger population in 9:36-37 and 65:1-4. Therefore, it is clear that the "fitna"/trial/affliction is in counting 19 and not in the number 19 itself.
| HED wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 16:16 |
And even if you say count, all my arguments remain valid, and it remains that you are not responding well to my arguments and you are not giving a convincing meaning to the verses after 74:31.
|
All that you did was present Dr. Khalifa’s false translation, which is standard 19er response. You didn’t even disagree about my correction of Dr. Khalifa’s translation of the noun “fitna” as a verb and his false relocation of the “to” so that he can change the clear cause and effect meaning of the passage. The only reason you didn’t disagree is that Dr. Khalifa’s mistranslation is indisputable. Even Edip agreed that Dr. Khalifa’s translation of 74:31 is not accurate and he modified it in the course of our debate a few years back. The fact is that Code 19 was born out of mistranslations of 74:30-31 so it is not surprising that it dies when you translate this passage properly.
| HED wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 16:16 |
In particular you cannot explain why the fitna about 19 strengthens the faith of the faithful. You are just changing a meaning of a word of Quran.
|
Which word am I changing? I am simply translating what the passage is saying with the noun and the cause and effect properly rendered. This is irrespective of what the word “3idat” means. The only function of the count (or if you desire number) of 19 is that it is a “fitna”/trial for the disbeliever, nothing more and nothing less. This is what accomplishes the results that come afterwards, not 19 by itself as Dr. Khalifa tried to change the passage to say. As I said, this is indisputable. This fact alone should be sufficient for true believers in the god and his message to put an end to this Code 19 “fitna” right here and now. Are there any believers here?
| HED wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 16:16 |
Not exactly. Look at this other occurence of "Fitna".
The fitna is not necessarely all the time bad. Again a mistake.
|
It is always bad when we fall into the “fitna” by getting obsessed with it. People who are obsessed with their children and/or their fortunes are exactly like those obsessed with counting 19. They are also attracted to the pretty superficial aspect of those entities but fail to see the purpose and the essence. If you don’t get obsessed with the “fitna” then you have passed the test. For example, I am not obsessed with counting 19. I may have 19 new emails in my inbox one day but I don’t think differently of it than f I had 18 or 20. Since 1 out of each 19 numbers is going to be a 19 divisible, one would encounter such numbers often in his life but a person not afflicted by this “fitna”/trial would not be obsessed with those numbers and wouldn’t think differently of them than with any other number.
| HED wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 16:16 |
If we return now to 74:31
74:31 ... and we assigned their number (19) as a Fitna for the disbelievers and to convince those who have received the Book and to strengthen the faith of the faithful..
You see here that (19) is connected to something good, it is not only bad. You are showing me again that you are not taking Quranic facts as they are.
|
Great, let’s talk about facts. Can you show everyone where the “and” (Arabic letter Waw) occurs after “disbelievers” in 74:31 in the original Arabic? If you can’t show us then why are you again, like Dr. Khalifa did before you, trying to change the cause and effect relationship in the passage? Don’t you appreciate 74:30-31 as it is and hence are you trying to improve on it?
Please don’t get angry with me or take anything that I say personally. It is Dr. Khalifa himself who set in motion the wheel for exposing his own affliction by this “fitna”/trial and the destruction of Code 19 on the day that he so grossly and systematically mistranslated 74:31. It is up to you to trust Dr. Khalifa and Code 19 discoverers after this with your eternal fate and that of your children in the same way that you trusted the doctor who found the cure for cancer.
| HED wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 16:16 |
Please continue to explain what is the meaniing of verses 74:34 and 74:35. What is a warner/warning to people/humanity !
My respons, is easy to understand " Code 19 is one of the Great and a warner to humanity".
|
No, the passage from the beginning is about “saqar”/hell and it is talked about elsewhere as a warning, for example 92:14, etc. On the other hand, there is never anything in the great reading about any warning being some number.
| HED wrote on Fri, 04 July 2008 16:16 |
According to you, would the respons be "the fact that people fall into a bad Fitna (19 counting)" is a warning to humanity, as it strengthens also the faith of the faithful ?
|
The warning is hell. As for the fact that “people fall into a bad fitna (19 counting) strengthens the faith of the faithful”, this is what the passage says. You are free to believe it or not.
Peace,
Ayman
[Updated on: Sat, 05 July 2008 00:19]
|
|
|
| Lousy reasoning [message #47649 is a reply to message #47588 ] |
Sat, 05 July 2008 01:00 |
|
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
1. Why do you believe in the Quran? In other words, what are your top reasons for believing that it has divine origin?
|
Why did Dr. Khalifa believe that the great reading is from the god when he first embarked on translating it long before the Code 19 fiasco? The reason of course is its message.
|
Ayman:
Your answer to the first question demonstrates your real problem. You lack philosophical depth in your thinking and perhaps you have no clue about how problematic your reason is. Nevertheless you are good in trying a silly rhetoric by referring to a dead person's reason for his religious position. I am not talking to the dead person, but I am talking to you. If you are really following Rashad's model, you should appreciate the code 19. But, you wish to justify your arrogant opposition to one of the greatest signs by making me indulge about speculating on a dead person's reasoning for believing this or that.
I hope that you will show the courage to face yourself and reflect on the following questions:
1. If you like/approve the message of a book, does it make that message to be true?
2. If John or Jane like/approve the message of a book, do their liking make that message to be true?
3. If you like/approve the message of a book, does that make that book divine?
4. The same for John and Jane...?
5. Being raised in a community whose values are influenced by the message of a book, yes wouldn't this condition make a Mormon, or a Hindu, or a Bahai, or a Muslim much more favorable to the message of the very book they wore more or less raised with?
6. The same for John and Jane...
7. Personally, I have some cultural or personal problems with some verses of the Quran, but I am forced to accept the message of those verses because of great divine signs. Are you telling us that you have no problem with any verses in the Quran?!
8...
Let me share with you an old correspondence, which is related to this topic.
Functions of Code 19
June 10, 2004
SOMEONE: Peace be upon you, To Edip Yuksel, I like your rigorous way for finding the meanings of the words, the translation you provide fits better in context.
However, I still see a problem with counting "alif" in the concerned chapters. Can you tell how do you deal with this issue?
Also, in your article, you did not tell about the implications or the outcomes of your research, I'm not talking about "miracles", i'm talking about practical achievements in acknowledging the mathematical code.
Thank you
EDIP: Dear Someone: I have similar problems with the count of Alifs, as I acknowledged decades ago in my books. For instance please read my arguments on this issue published in Running Like Zebras. There you will find FOCUSED and INFORMED arguments between me and Abdurrahman Lomax, whom I consider one of the few who well understands his misunderstanding or unappreciative of the miracle.
Counting Alifs require at least a three or four month-long research by a team of scholars who would gather copies of oldest manuscripts (mostly partial versions) and critically analyze them and then reconstruct the entire manuscript with Alifs restored like its origin.
The VERY discrepancies in the spelling of Alifs, other letters and even words, is an indication that the Quran was not preserved as ink and paper/leather but as KNOWLEDGE, since the Quran is also defined as being in the heart of the those who have knowledge.
As for practical achievements of fulfillment of the code 19 prophecy, I will list some. I have limited time, so it will not be a thorough evaluation:
1. It proved that the Quran is not an ordinary book.
2. It increased the faith of believers and made it easy for them to question the established traditions and reject the authority of hadith and sunnah. Without the code 19, we would have difficulty in satisfying our mind and heart regarding the preservation of the Quran. Just think about the following question: "How can you trust in the Quran since it was also compiled, narrated and written by those people whom you have no trust. If they could fabricate so many hadiths in the name of the prophet, surely, they could fabricate some verses, even chapters attributing to God, like Jews and Christians. The very verses 15:9 and the like could be also the fabrication of that generation that burned the original Quran, added and subtracted from the Quran. Via these additions they wanted to convince people that the book they concocted was in fact protected by God...." Those who prefer HELL to the MIRACLE cannot answer this challenge. (Sure, they will try answer, but their answer would be filled with logical inconsistencies and flaws.)
3. It brought explanation to some mutashabih (multi-meaning) and prophetic verses, and in some cases enriched the meaning of many verses of the Quran. For instance, it explained the meaning and function of combination of alphabet letters initializing the chapters. Besides these initial letters, I have provided more than a dozen examples in my Turkish book Uzerinde 19 Var (ON IT 19.)
4. The MATHEMATICAL patterns, the deductions and inductions involving their comprehension trained and taught us to be RATIONAL. We have to use our reasoning in religious matters like we use in math and statistics..
5. It supported the Quranic claim that the majority of people in fact do not seek nor follow the truth and exposed that billions of believers are in fact not believers in Truth, but believers of their culture or followers various bandwagons of a particular group. (27:82)
6. It showed us that there is indeed SATAN who has hypnotic power over his constituencies. Blinded by their masters, they cannot SEE the PRECISE and OBVIOUS miracles.
7. By distinguishing those who are regressing and those who are progressing, it opened a new era.. (74:37; by calling oneself progressive one does not become a progressive person!). It distinguishes the real believers from the followers of hadith and sunnah, AND from those who give lip service to the QURAN ALONE message, not because of their strong faith, but because of their political, psychological, personal agendas.
8. ....
But, the most important practical result is: ETERNAL LIFE and HAPPINESS.
[Updated on: Sat, 05 July 2008 01:16]
Edip Yuksel; J.D.
www.yuksel.org
www.19.org
www.islamicreform.org
19@19.org
|
|
|
Current Time: Sat Jul 5 06:38:26 MST 2008
|
Search
FAQ
Register
Login
Home
