How reliable is the order of revelation that has been presented on submission.org? How was the order determined?

If Im not mistaken, sura Al-Duha is believed to be the second sura revealed to Muhammad after a very long period of no revelation. Even the semantic meaning of the sura seems to confirm this.

[93:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
[93:1] By the forenoon.
[93:2] By the night as it falls.
[93:3] Your Lord never abandoned you, nor did He forget.
[93:4] The Hereafter is far better for you than this first (life).
[93:5] And your Lord will give you enough; you will be pleased.
[93:6] Did He not find you orphaned and He gave you a home?
[93:7] He found you astray, and guided you.
[93:8] He found you poor, and made you rich.
[93:9] Therefore, you shall not forsake the orphan.
[93:10] Nor shall you reprimand the beggar.
[93:11] You shall proclaim the blessing your Lord has bestowed upon you.

Yet on submission.org this sura's order of revelation is set at 11. I just wanted your opinions on this issue, thanks.

Muhammad

Peace

Quote:

How reliable is the order of revelation that has been presented on submission.org? How was the order determined?

Good question . That table is in appendix 23 of Rashad with no explanation. I have asked same question many times. Scrambling 114 pairs of number and creating such table multiple of 19 is not is not coincidence . Rashad did not know his table is multiple of 19 and if he was alive asking him were is the source for such orders he may said he has been inspired but he did not have proof. But now this table shows that Rashad was inspired to create such table which with further search is rejecting 128-129 too.

Following is copy of same file and I show how mathematician are not able to find the clue.
http://y19.net/unanswered.htm

Peace.

Dear Bahman,

The arrangement being 19 divisible is not miraculous. I have discussed this with you before. It has a 1 in 19 chance which is far from a miracle.

Let me give you an example. The submitters think that the namaz is miraculously preserved because the rakats for 5 prayers placed near each other the number is 19 divisible:

24434 = 19 x 1286

But look the same rakats placed differently:

43244 = 19 x 2276

So there you are two arrangements of the same digits are 19 divisible. With 114 different numbers there are again 1 in 19 of those arrangements that will be 19 divisible.

I hope you understand.

Regards.

Salam Bahman,

The order of revelation as in Rashad's Table is well known before Rashad. In many mus-hafs you can find this order given at the beginning of each sura or at the index at the end of the mus-haf.

I found some sites in arabic giving this order of revelation too.
for example:
http://www.balagh.com/mosoa/quran/re10cdqc.htm
http://islam.alnadabi.net/quraan.php

So in a nutshell, Rashad didn't bring anything new in this matter, he just gave the table as the transmissions say

Best regards,
Mohamed

Salam servant,

Well its not a miracle if you analyse it separated from other phenomens.

For example if you throw the dice and get 6:6 its not amazing, and if you do it twice and in both times you get 6:6 its more amazing but still possible, but if you do it 50 times and each time you get 6:6 then

if you consider the Quran as a complete unit and analyse all data you will find that its quite amazing that so many structures are depending on prime number 19. Those who transmitted the order of revelation had no idea about what we call today "code 19" or whatever we call it.

There are for 114 permutations soooo many combinations and just hitting one by chance, EVEN if this one is 1/19 possible, is not an easy task, especially if you don't know about such phenomen. And if you know about it, then certainly you need a computer to divide a 468 digits number.

About your namaz analysis: you take 1 phenomen and leave the others and think you made an analysis???

To compare what you have done, someone who might oppose code 19 in the Quran can say, well its not a miracle at all, the basmala consists of 19 letters and i can write many expressions composed of 19 letters as well...Such level of analysis is at kindergarten level. And please don't take it personally

PEACE

Peace momo,

Thank you for your ideas on this. I cannot recall exactly how the 486 digit number wass constructed but take for example the example where the digits of the surah numbers placed together was not 19 divisible.

Now say someone said, let's place the digits of the order of revelation after the surah number and found that was also not 19 divisible.

Now someone says well what about placing the order number before the surah number and then found that the result is 19 divisible. Wow, a miracle right before your eyes.

Similarly with the rakats of namaz. The order of the rakats beginning with the morning prayer ie. 24434 is 19 divisible. But the Arabic day does not begin in the morning like the Western day.

The Arabic day begins from the night before. Sunday night in the Western system is Monday night in the Arabic system. So the first namaz of the day is actually the night prayer. So the order should be:

34244 which is not 19 divisible.

So the definitions surrounding these 'miracles' makes or breaks them. They are arbitrary.

Regards.

Salam Servant,

Well, my talk here is about your method and it has nothnig to do with my position. Just to clarify things

Quote:

The Arabic day begins from the night before. Sunday night in the Western system is Monday night in the Arabic system. So the first namaz of the day is actually the night prayer.

My day starts when i wake up and ends before i go sleeping, and this is the natural definition which affects the majority of humans as well as animals, etc. It has no meaning when a day "starts" after I come back from work. As simple as that

By the way, the salaah is also during the day, i.e. noon and afternoon for if you read 24:37 you will notice that business and work shouldn't distract us from salaah and this means, that during the noon and/or afternoon there is salaah due

Best regards,
Mohamed

Salaam

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I found some sites in arabic giving this order of revelation too. for example: http://www.balagh.com/mosoa/quran/re10cdqc.htm http://islam.alnadabi.net/quraan.php So in a nutshell, Rashad didn't bring anything new in this matter, he just gave the table as the transmissions say

I have an Arabic copy used by Farsi translator Omod Majd. At the end there is a list indicating which one is Madina or Makkah one . It does not indicate sequence number of surat originally revealed.

Wonder why such important issue has not been translated into English. Would you do a favor to find an English one and refer me to source of such information was given in that site?

http://www.balagh.com/mosoa/quran/re10cdqc.htm
Peace.

servant wrote on Thu, 03 March 2005 00:31

Dear Bahman, The arrangement being 19 divisible is not miraculous. I have discussed this with you before. It has a 1 in 19 chance which is far from a miracle. Let me give you an example. The submitters think that the namaz is miraculously preserved because the rakats for 5 prayers placed near each other the number is 19 divisible: 24434 = 19 x 1286 But look the same rakats placed differently: 43244 = 19 x 2276 So there you are two arrangements of the same digits are 19 divisible. With 114 different numbers there are again 1 in 19 of those arrangements that will be 19 divisible. I hope you understand. Regards.

Salaam
Our dear friend Mohammed has explained in this tread how it works.

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Salam Bahman, I'd like to comment on the following, even if it has a little to do with the main topic of this thread. Pardon me Quote: Now after his death we witness his inspiration by leaving behind such table that mathematicians with most advanced programs can not imitate it . http://y19.net/suratorder.html we have the numbers 1-114 in a sequence, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... , 114 And before each of these numbers we enter a number from 1-114 indicating its seq. of revelation as i understood. so do you know how many different arrangements for 114 numbers? Example: 3 numbers have 6 arrangements: 123 132 213 231 312 321 --------------- 4 numbers have 24 arrangements. 1234 1243 1324 1342 1423 1432 2134 2143 2314 2341 2413 2431 3124 3142 3214 3241 3412 3421 4123 4132 4213 4231 4312 4321 This is called mathematical factorial. On any scientific calculator, including the one shipped with windows, you can find this symbol n! which calculates the factorial of a given number. the factorial of 114 = 114! = 2,5435597334721875571201320041893e+186 this is approximately the number: 25435597334721875571201320041893 followed by only 155 zeros after it. So anyone who doubts that such a table can be found easily, he must only test 254355973347218755712013200418930000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000 such big numbers. Of course don't forget to wish them luck if we say each number will be calculated in 1/1000000000 of a second, then we need about: 8,0655750046682761197365931132336e+167 centuries to finish the calculation these are only 80655750046682761197365931132336 (followed by 136 zeros) centuries. Instead of calculating all possibilities one need to pick one by chance from 2,5435597334721875571201320041893e+186 existing possibilities. Some people play all of their life to pick 6 numbers out of 49 (almost 14 million possibilities only) and they never match! Best regards, Mohamed

I hope this can answer your question.

Salam Bahman,

I don't know if translating what the webpage states can add more information to the subject. What it says is exactly what Rashad Khalifa states in his table, i.e. the order of revelation of suras and if they are Mecca/Medina sura.

Finding an english one can be a bit more difficult, but if i find one, i'll let you know

Best regards,
Mohamed

Bahman,

The method i am describing here is not an analysis of the probability of the occurances of numbers multiple of 19 in the permutations. It describes only, a method how to find a number which is divisible by 19. Obviously to find a combination which is divisible by 19, you have either to pick one by luck or go through the combinations and divide each combination by 19. Also obvious is that more than 1 combination can be divisible by 19, they are many, but how to find them? One need to go through the list of all combinations which is 114! (114-factorial) and divide each combination by 19. Obvious also, that those people who transmitted this info about order of revelation had no clue about these things, which we are debating about now

Best regards,
Mohamed

Salaam Mohammed.

Quote:

One need to go through the list of all combinations which is 114! (114-factorial) and divide each combination by 19

How you can do such set up. If you read the file a mathematician with PHD using advanced computer program could not go even to 19 numbers.

Do you think such set up in that table is coincidence?

Regard bahman

Salaam Mohammmed

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I don't know if translating what the webpage states can add more information to the subject. What it says is exactly what Rashad Khalifa states in his table, i.e. the order of revelation of suras and if they are Mecca/Medina sura.

But it shows exactly what Rashd have done in that table. By number. Is that right. ?

It is strange when Rashad did not write where he found those information and the publisher too!!
but this site may tell us here exactly they got their information.

But you say:

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The order of revelation as in Rashad's Table is well known before Rashad. In many mus-hafs you can find this order given at the beginning of each sura or at the index at the end of the mus-haf.

I would like to see at least one of those Muhafs even in Arabic if is available. Would you post one please.

Thank you
God bless.

Peace all,

With no disrespect to anyone I tried to explain the issue of factorial to bahman when he first asked me this question.

I told him that the number 114! is absolutely enormous - ie. the number of ways of arranging 114 surahs.

But this does not make the arrangement miraculous. Because every 1 in 19 of those arrangements will produce a 19 divisible figure.

So yes it is interesting that the transmitted order is 19 divisible; but that alone is not a miracle. It is a 1 in 19 probability. If you pick a random number it will have a 1 in 19 chance of being 19 divisible also. Hardly a miracle.

Also the way the number is generated is arbitrary - it requires the insertion of the order 1,2,3,4, etc between the surah numbers. Why does it need this? Why not arrange the surah digits alone. If you are inserting other numbers, why are you inserting them before the surah number and not after etc.

Regards.

Salaam Mohammed

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Finding an english one can be a bit more difficult, but if i find one, i'll let you know

The chronological order of revelation is different than the order in which the Qur’ân was compiled as a written book. The order of revelation was according to the needs and circumstances of particular times. However, as soon as a verse was revealed, the Prophet Muhammad would dictate it to the scribes and instruct exactly where it fit in the current arrangement. No effort was made after that to maintain the chronological order of revelation, although some of his most famous companions used to swear that they were aware of the cause and circumstance of revelation for every verse in the Qur’ân.

http://ccminc.faithweb.com/islam/quran02.html