Monotheists, in their zeal to profess their monotheism, have a very strong tendency to acknowledge only 2 intelligent parties, man and god.
This causes them to think that anything that is too complicated for man to create MUST therefore originate from god.
This is nonsensical, for it over looks the 3rd party known by various names which I shall here refer to as Satan.
Satan is known to be far beyond the intelligence of man, and no one who considers the ongoing suffering on this planet can rationally deny that.
Rationally therefore, we can not conclude without further evidence that something found to be beyond the creative abilities of man must therefore originate from god.
It could very well originate from Satan!

Discovering codes in religious books has become popular nowadays, of course with the aim to ‘proof ’ divine origin.
Hindus, Jews, Christians and finally the Muslims made their claims.

So, who would make use of scriptures and codes to guide/manipulate mankind, God or Satan or both?

Consider that for decades now, secret projects of often military nature have been using mind control techniques very successfully. In fact our world is practically ruled by it.
Consider also that our understanding of any and all words of our language comes from education and culture, not from God directly. Therefore, our understanding of written words, books, depends entirely on our cultural and educational status.
There is no meaning in written words other than that which we assign to it, our interpretation.
Consider also that a human language, no matter how rich, can not possibly communicate the infinite Truth but at best serve as a sign post. But the sign post is not the holy city it refers to!

It is easy to see that written words are by far an inferior method for guidance or manipulation, compared to the much more advanced technique of direct messaging from source to heart/mind. Be it God or military.
On the other hand, Satan, who no doubt also applies this more advanced technique (that’s what these secret projects are all about!), would seek to divert our attention away from this inner guidance and do that by offering/forcing outer guidance upon us.
He would bring books that cause a lot of conflict and bloodshed.
This has the following 'advantages' for him:
- Mankind is tricked into fear and hatred, which excludes and separates him from the divine ‘love channel’.
- He, Satan, feeds on this energetic pool of fear and grows stronger
- Mankind forgets his inner on line link with the divine and sinks deeper and deeper into the darkness of outer ‘guidance’ which in reality is (spiritual) slavery.

Therefore, considering the ongoing suffering in this world, the unconditioned human spirit can clearly see that we live in a dark matrix that is sustained by mind control.
It is also clear that organised religion based on outer guidance using books is the most effective tool to keep us in this matrix of illusion.
Religion is part of the matrix, NOT the way out of it!

Now hold on, I hear you say, my holy book is full of wisdom.
Yep, and the dish with food that kills the rat is full of delicious rice grains.
In both cases however it’s the unnoticeable amount of poison that does the trick.
Satan is not an idiot and would never:
- offer pure lies that everybody could recognise and refuse
- allow divine messages to wreck ‘havoc’ in his dark matrix. ALWAYS he will add poison.
This poison need not even be in the message. It can, an usually is, in the teaching/interpretation.

Inserting codes in ‘holy’ books is really beneath God and a clear sign of satanic trickery to keep our intellects busy and trapped.
God doesn’t need such childish trickery, he is always on line with all of his children.
The problem however is that we have switched our inner modems off, encouraged by power hungry clergy under the influence of dark trickery.

Even though the above is pretty rational it is not in defence of rationality!
The crux of the Truth is that it is not limited by rationality. It is infinite.

Thusly, monotheistic rationality, especially where it denies other intelligences or (half)gods in between man and God/Source, is exposed as a double dead end.
It’s the folly of the scribes and in itself part of the satanic trickery.
So, 19.org is still part of the vast majority that seeks to escape from the dark matrix, the realm of Satan, but still finds itself operating within it.

There must be true way out, and there is:

‘Be still (intellect) and know that I (that stillness) Am God.’
Your knowingness (out of that stillness) is His Son, which is your true YOU.
The only way to God (your inner sanctum) is tru his Son (which is you).
Only there, beyond our illusionary time/space continuum, you will find infinity, eternity and all knowledge.
The only place one should bow to is not a physical kaaba somewhere on this planet, but the kaaba of our personal inner sanctum.

Time for another round of book burning?

Peace "anders",

Good article indeed. Only the problem remains. The focus on ones inner self is being practiced by many religions/ideologies all around the world. Yet Sufis still maintain there exaggerated love for Muhammad. Christians of whom many wonder off and meditate still claim Jesus is GOD and His Own??? Son. Buddhists believe in eternity but without accepting a Supreme Being. Thus this method does not lead to one conclusion at all. BUT the method which has been quite successful, though there are shades of grey in language and interpretation of scripture, is the one employed by those who follow Quran Alone. Independent people from different parts of the world from different backgrounds and religions/ideologies DID COME to almost similar conclusions regarding the essence of the Quran’s Message i.e. GOD is One and many more issues. By employing the scientific method bros Arnold, Shabbir, Edip, Bahman, myself and others are getting closer and closer to ONE OPINION/VIEW/IDEOLOGY. So now you can see for yourself that the most reasonable way out of the matrix is via the method I just described and not via mere focus on ones inner self and meditation. GOD Bless!

Well no, I do not see that.

The fact that many fail to reach their goal following the inner path is NOT proof that it’s the wrong path.
On the contrary, the path is known to be narrow and long.
Therefore it is more logical to see the failure of the many as an indication that it is the right way
And it is!

Your view that ‘independent’ people have reached some conclusion about the Quran is not valid.
Independent of what, and who is the judge?
The simple fact of the matter is that Muslims all over the world are more prone to seeking violent solutions than adherents of other religions. And this is a sure proof that the moslim way grosso modo is the outer way, which is the illusion of the dark matrix, satans domain.
Your claim that the outer path, science and books, is the better way is not substantiated by proof in the outer world. On the contrary!

Your further claim that the scientific way can lead to success is a perfect example of the outer way and the very trap of the darkness you should free yourself from!
Not doing so will keep you trapped in the illusion forever and keep you separated from your inner divine reality that has been found and spoken of by many throughout the ages.
Science is the domain of the intellect and intellect cannot go beyond its own domain.
The role of the intellect is poorly understood. It can merely disclose the madness within it’s own domain. E.g. religious psychosis.
It can however NEVER discover it’s own source.

The Truth is far beyond the domain of the intellect, of an entirely different nature.
It comes not via the intellectual follies of the brain, but via the on-line connection with source/god that EACH individual has (but most have lost under the pressure of a power hungry clergy who , knowingly or unknowingly, perform satans work by promoting outer realities/gods)
Truth/god is found only in the NOW, the intellect is always in the past/future. (studying, scheming)
To connect, it is required that one is silent, closes down his efforts to conquer god.
One can not conquer god, one can only make room for him.
By silencing the intellect/ego and ASK.

Peace "anders",

anders wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 21:18

Well no, I do not see that. The fact that many fail to reach their goal following the inner path is NOT proof that it’s the wrong path. On the contrary, the path is known to be narrow and long. Therefore it is more logical to see the failure of the many as an indication that it is the right way And it is!

JK-You did not get my point. It doesnt matter how many failed. What matters is how many people independent of each other came to the same conclusions and we need to be able to observe this. That would be a good indicator of the truth.

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Your view that ‘independent’ people have reached some conclusion about the Quran is not valid. Independent of what, and who is the judge?

JK- Independent of sunni/shia or other sectraian biases, coming from non-Quranic or even non-Arabic backgrounds etc.

Quote:

The simple fact of the matter is that Muslims all over the world are more prone to seeking violent solutions than adherents of other religions. And this is a sure proof that the moslim way grosso modo is the outer way, which is the illusion of the dark matrix, satans domain.

JK- Those are "muslims" who follow hadith besides the Quran. Name me any Muslim who upholds Quran Alone and indulges in such activities.

Quote:

Your claim that the outer path, science and books, is the better way is not substantiated by proof in the outer world. On the contrary!

JK- Oh but it is and ive observed it. If you say it is not then youll have to prove otherwise.

Quote:

Your further claim that the scientific way can lead to success is a perfect example of the outer way and the very trap of the darkness you should free yourself from!

JK- I see no other way of getting closer to the truth. If you do then please provide some objective evidence for it.

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Not doing so will keep you trapped in the illusion forever and keep you separated from your inner divine reality that has been found and spoken of by many throughout the ages.

JK- Spoken out by many independently? Can you tell me what that is and how you know they did this via meditation and focussing on ones inner self only? Did they all come to the same/similar conclusions and what are those?

Quote:

Science is the domain of the intellect and intellect cannot go beyond its own domain.

JK- Science is anything we independently observe using our senses and others being able to repeat them independently too. If you claim theres another sixt sense then youll have to provide evidence for it. And also the moment you do observe something else via another sensory input which others can too it automatically becomes observation and hence science.

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The role of the intellect is poorly understood. It can merely disclose the madness within it’s own domain. E.g. religious psychosis. It can however NEVER discover it’s own source.

JK- Oh but it did. The brain and it's neural activity is the source of the intellect. This has been verified by many experiments independently all over the world by different neuro scientists, many of whom dont even know each other. All reached to similar conclusions and the results are repeatable.

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The Truth is far beyond the domain of the intellect, of an entirely different nature.

JK- Please provide some evidence and how we can all independently verify this claim.

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It comes not via the intellectual follies of the brain, but via the on-line connection with source/god that EACH individual has (but most have lost under the pressure of a power hungry clergy who , knowingly or unknowingly, perform satans work by promoting outer realities/gods) Truth/god is found only in the NOW, the intellect is always in the past/future. (studying, scheming)

JK- As i said please provide some evidence for this on-line connection with GOD which we can verify.
Lemme ask you something. If this were GOD's way of wanting to communicate with us instead of via the natural senses then why did He create this universe and all the features and processes within it? Do you mean He did all of this in vain? Do you mean that He wants to trick even the honest researchers who actually makes use of his/her five senses in order to reach the truth? Certainly believing such would be non sensible to the highest degree and would make GOD, GOD forbid, unjust.

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To connect, it is required that one is silent, closes down his efforts to conquer god. One can not conquer god, one can only make room for him. By silencing the intellect/ego and ASK.

JK- Ive heard this claim before and ive tried the method out myself. Didnt provide me with any info or truth. So use this method and give me some evidence that it really leads to the truth. Can you make predictions based on that method? Predictions like what would happen to say planet/comet x in y amount of time? GOD Bless!

Your reply is thoughtful, I feel obliged to respond in a like wise manner.
Many questions, I’ll do my best.

Quote:

It doesn’t matter how many failed. What matters is how many people independent of each other came to the same conclusions and we need to be able to observe this. That would be a good indicator of the truth.

Agreed, this is what I said. But mind the value of independence. As long as those many people had the same education and merely go along with it, that’s not independence but shared ignorance.
I point out here that the education system has been deliberately falsified in order to protect the interests of the elite by side tracking the intellect of the masses.
Independence, as Einstein defined it, is independence from culture/education/media/religion. It’s you and god, your inner reality.

Quote:

Independent of sunni/shia or other sectraian biases, coming from non-Quranic or even non-Arabic backgrounds etc.

My question was rethorical. This is not independence but very limited partial independence of a specified group.

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Those are "Muslims" who follow hadith besides the Quran. Name me any Muslim who upholds Quran Alone and indulges in such activities.

This is a self defeating argument. Any time you encounter a muslim who has a different opinion, you will state he follows other-than-quran sources. That person however will always deny or claim it’s a indisputable result of correct understanding of the quran.
The non-muslim world has no interest is such intra-islamic disputes and will qualify it as bulk.
The violent prone muslims may not follow 19.org, but they most definitely follow chapter 9 of the quran

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Oh but it is and I’ve observed it. [the outer way being the right path to truth] If you say it is not then youll have to prove otherwise.

No, you are observing an illusion. There are two proofs.
Negative proof:
As said, science has a very large deliberate false component for reasons stated above.
Classical Newtonian science has been shown to be an utter fantasy by quantum physics.
Universities teach that in Physics classes, yet in the next building engineers are still being trained in the falsified Newtonian sciences because universities need funding, and the elite who wishes to perpetuate their earth destroying protectionist policies have all the money to provide it. Governments comply because they are corrupted by that same money and power and because they are always short of money, having handed over the money printing to that elite.
Positive proof:
This, by definition, can not be provided within the domain of the intellect.
It is not intellectual but experiencial. E.g. you can not proof that it is painful to hammer your thumb, but you will certainly experience it!

Quote:

I see no other way of getting closer to the truth. If you do then please provide some objective evidence for it.

In the same order :I believe you; yes I do; no I can’t.
But I am confident that if you read this message open minded you will see that way.
As said, experiencial evidence can not be objectified. Furthermore, there is no such thing as an objective reality, unless you wish to stick to stone age classical science(fiction) and ignore quantum physics.

Quote:

Spoken out by many independently? Can you tell me what that is and how you know they did this via meditation and focussing on ones inner self only? Did they all come to the same/similar conclusions and what are those?

I can not tell you what it is, I can try to show you the way so you can find out for your self. There is a lot of confusion about meditation and there are many techniques.
All will fail if you miss the point, anyone will do if you don’t.
The point is that it aims to silence the ongoing inner voice that keeps the intellect occupied and operate within the domain of learned behaviour bases on a myriad of beliefs that era copied from our culture, false education and false (outer) religion.
ONLY when you shut up, you may hear the voice of god.
That’s because he respects the free will he gave you.
Don’t think he will start shouting the moment you ‘give it a try’’ !!! He will not.

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Science is anything we independently observe using our senses and others being able to repeat them independently too. If you claim theres another sixt sense then youll have to provide evidence for it.

Can you proof eye sight to a blind born? You can not.
Do you mean our physical senses or modern instruments that extend them AND our sense of reality?
Have you never considered that out senses have an extremely limited scope (ears 20-20.000 Hz etc) that (logically and mathematically argued) sense only an infinitely small part of infinity??
Furthermore, even this very limited reality does not exist. There’s abundant proof on internet alone, here is not the place to ‘prove it’.

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Oh but it did. [the brain discovering it’s own source] The brain and its neural activity is the source of the intellect. This has been verified by many experiments independently all over the world by different neuro scientists, many of whom dont even know each other. All reached to similar conclusions and the results are repeatable.

You are guessing.
Cel biologist Bruce Lipton proved beyond doubt that the brain is NOT the source of intellect.
(youtube ‘bruce lipton’) The many who claimed/assumed otherwise all had the same training and merely perpetuate what the elite whishes to hear and pay for.
You need to search for those brave REAL scientists who work out of the box and except poor pay, ridicule from their ‘established’ colleagues and sometimes even murder.

Quote:

Please provide some evidence and how we can all independently verify this claim.

I can not, for reasons explained. You can AND MUST independently (from culture/education/religion/science) verify this by seeking the EXPERIENCE within.
You will NEVER accomplish this as long as you hold sacred the outer illusion and merely wish to ‘add’ god to it.
He will leave you your self chosen illusion, including the end of it AND you when the time comes.
Only if you are prepared to be a genuine jihadi and have the courage to free yourself from cultural/educational/religious bondage you will succeed. Honesty is your guarantee.
You need not forsake all at once, god is merciful and unconditionally loving.
You make one step, he will approach by 10. Fair deal no?

Quote:

As I said please provide some evidence for this on-line connection with GOD which we can verify.Lemme ask you something. If this were GOD's way of wanting to communicate with us instead of via the natural senses then why did He create this universe and all the features and processes within it? Do you mean He did all of this in vain? Do you mean that He wants to trick even the honest researchers who actually makes use of his/her five senses in order to reach the truth? Certainly believing such would be non sensible to the highest degree and would make GOD, GOD forbid, unjust.

Unless you wish to assert that the military with their mind control games are mightier that god, you have to see and admit that direct messaging is not beyond god but his very invention that by passes possible dyslectia
Seeing depends more on willingness than on intellect…
Our 3D illusion is a compartment of The Whole, a womb, in which immature mankind can evolve and learn. He will never allow immature human spirits to enter The Whole, his kingdom, as long as they/we are violence prone in seeking solutions in the outer world. He will not allow such psychotics to wreck havoc in his creation.
To see the illusion and the folly of violent solutions is a first step to the way out of it and brings the ‘rest of the whole’ nearer.
Scientists who follow only their senses may be honest, they are also ignorant victims of their ‘in the box training’ and not true scientists as defined by Einstein. They are merely labourers in the service of the elite.
There is no trickery or unjustness from god in this. If you understand, you see infinite love, protection and the highest gift in the universe, free will.
Learn to think not from the ego that seeks survival, but from your inner source that is you/god and only reality.

Quote:

I’ve heard this claim before and ive tried the method out myself. Didnt provide me with any info or truth. So use this method and give me some evidence that it really leads to the truth. Can you make predictions based on that method? Predictions like what would happen to say planet/comet x in y amount of time? GOD Bless!

This question is asked and anwered above.
Prediction? Prophets do and did. All knowledge is within. No limits except those self imposed.

Peace “anders”,

anders wrote on Thu, 07 August 2008 16:25

Your reply is thoughtful, I feel obliged to respond in a like wise manner. Many questions, I’ll do my best.

JK- Wonderful!

Quote:

Agreed, this is what I said. But mind the value of independence. As long as those many people had the same education and merely go along with it, that’s not independence but shared ignorance. I point out here that the education system has been deliberately falsified in order to protect the interests of the elite by side tracking the intellect of the masses. Independence, as Einstein defined it, is independence from culture/education/media/religion. It’s you and god, your inner reality.

JK- Ok but then I should be able to observe individuals from all over the world, UNRELATED to each other and not in contact with each other coming to similar conclusions using your suggested methods. These conclusions also don’t have to be vague like just a plesant feeling etc or that they all have certain tunnel vision since those are just biological factors of the brain. There needs to be some useful prediction coming out of those people which could then be verified by others like myself.

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My question was rethorical. This is not independence but very limited partial independence of a specified group.

JK- Yes but the people who accepted Quran Alone come from all kinds of backgrounds and cultures and yet they all reach certain significant similar conclusions.

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This is a self defeating argument. Any time you encounter a muslim who has a different opinion, you will state he follows other-than-quran sources. That person however will always deny or claim it’s a indisputable result of correct understanding of the quran.

JK- Scientists also vary in many opinions but theres never physical violence amongst them. THIS was the issue. It doesn’t matter how hard we may disagree we never physically attack anyone because of these differences, something which sectarians do.

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The non-muslim world has no interest is such intra-islamic disputes and will qualify it as bulk. The violent prone muslims may not follow 19.org, but they most definitely follow chapter 9 of the quran

JK- NO they do NOT follow the correct or independent, non biased understanding of chapter 9 as has been made using various other Quranic verses, context of sura 9 itself and the basic principal in the Quran which states to NEVER AGGRESS. This statement alone is enough to indicate that all verses which ask us to fight are in self defence and it is necessary to defend oneself and not be a coward but at the same time not transgress there too. You need to study the Quran more carefully and not fall into sectarian biased interpretations/understandings.

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No, you are observing an illusion. There are two proofs. Negative proof: As said, science has a very large deliberate false component for reasons stated above. Classical Newtonian science has been shown to be an utter fantasy by quantum physics.

JK- For everyday purposes Newtonian science works very well. Actually for all non-quatum levels it’s accurate enough.

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Universities teach that in Physics classes, yet in the next building engineers are still being trained in the falsified Newtonian sciences because universities need funding, and the elite who wishes to perpetuate their earth destroying protectionist policies have all the money to provide it. Governments comply because they are corrupted by that same money and power and because they are always short of money, having handed over the money printing to that elite.

JK- Quantum physics IS TAUGHT as part of science and all the major theories associated with it including the Copenhagen interpretation. The uses though will only be actually required once we are able to make quantum computers.

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Positive proof: This, by definition, can not be provided within the domain of the intellect. It is not intellectual but experiencial. E.g. you can not proof that it is painful to hammer your thumb, but you will certainly experience it!

JK- You can approximate the experience in words. If ive experienced pain elsewhere then you can adequately describe it to me. But we are dicussing the MEANING associated with an experience. If i say experience something and label it as Divine, does it really mean it is Divine? On what PATTERN do I base this and how do I deduce that the experience was Divine inspiration?

Quote:

In the same order :I believe you; yes I do; no I can’t. But I am confident that if you read this message open minded you will see that way. As said, experiencial evidence can not be objectified. Furthermore, there is no such thing as an objective reality, unless you wish to stick to stone age classical science(fiction) and ignore quantum physics.

JK- Quantum physics is accepted all around the world BUT there are still various interpretations within that theory and many pseudoscientists have misused quantum physics to make supernatural claims. That is the problem otherwise quantum physics is all over the scientific community and well established. Regarding experiential “evidence” then every religion is right since they all claim to have experienced GOD in one way or another. Christians claim they’ve met Jesus in person, “muslims” that they’ve dreamt about Muhammad etc etc. All claim that their experience was real but obviously they cant all be right since many are contradictory doctrines.

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I can not tell you what it is, I can try to show you the way so you can find out for your self. There is a lot of confusion about meditation and there are many techniques. All will fail if you miss the point, anyone will do if you don’t. The point is that it aims to silence the ongoing inner voice that keeps the intellect occupied and operate within the domain of learned behaviour bases on a myriad of beliefs that era copied from our culture, false education and false (outer) religion. ONLY when you shut up, you may hear the voice of god. That’s because he respects the free will he gave you. Don’t think he will start shouting the moment you ‘give it a try’’ !!! He will not.

JK- Lets say some day I experience GOD. He tells me something. When I then awake or get out from that “trance” or meditation I have to first verify whether the message was actually from GOD. So in order for that to happen GOD must give me a statement which predicts a future event IMPOSSIBLE for all the people in the world at that time to predict using the latest technology available. That is the only way I can be sure. I’ll have to note that statement down like post it on a forum with a date and time stamp BEFORE the event happens. Then others can objectively verify the claim too in case the prediction comes out to be true. So if you claim to have received statements from GOD, ask Him to give you a sign like the otherwise unpredictable path of a comet or planet i.e. at what time a certain planet /comet will be at what location OR better the exact time and location of an earth quake and the no on the Richter scale down to at least three decimal places and at least three months in advance. That would do it.

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Can you proof eye sight to a blind born? You can not. Do you mean our physical senses or modern instruments that extend them AND our sense of reality? Have you never considered that out senses have an extremely limited scope (ears 20-20.000 Hz etc) that (logically and mathematically argued) sense only an infinitely small part of infinity?? Furthermore, even this very limited reality does not exist. There’s abundant proof on internet alone, here is not the place to ‘prove it’.

JK- I mean our senses plus the devices we build which make things visible to our senses and in that sense we are able to indirectly observe them too. So yes that is obviously included as part of sciences but anything that we have not observed or verified cannot be claimed to be true by any degree because the danger of it being false is much greater.

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You are guessing. Cel biologist Bruce Lipton proved beyond doubt that the brain is NOT the source of intellect. (youtube ‘bruce lipton’) The many who claimed/assumed otherwise all had the same training and merely perpetuate what the elite whishes to hear and pay for. You need to search for those brave REAL scientists who work out of the box and except poor pay, ridicule from their ‘established’ colleagues and sometimes even murder.

JK- How can you say that ONE out of many scientists, WHO ALL WORK INDEPENDENTLY IN THE SAME FIELD, is right and all the others are wrong? That doesn’t make any sense to me. Cellular memory, if that is what you imply, has not yet been proven to any significant degree. Making up conspiracy theories is not the way to go.

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I can not, for reasons explained. You can AND MUST independently (from culture/education/religion/science) verify this by seeking the EXPERIENCE within.

JK- But I asked you WHAT should I verify? You have to state some pattern which I can then compare and that pattern should then not reflect the already known biological brain function. Also as I said an accurate prediction needs to be associated with it in order for it to be +ve evidence. Without the method making any accurate prediction we can never know if it is true to any degree.

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You will NEVER accomplish this as long as you hold sacred the outer illusion and merely wish to ‘add’ god to it. He will leave you your self chosen illusion, including the end of it AND you when the time comes. Only if you are prepared to be a genuine jihadi and have the courage to free yourself from cultural/educational/religious bondage you will succeed. Honesty is your guarantee. You need not forsake all at once, god is merciful and unconditionally loving. You make one step, he will approach by 10. Fair deal no?

JK- Ive already left behind culture and religion a much as possible and always seek for independent info as much as I can and will continue to do so GW.

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Unless you wish to assert that the military with their mind control games are mightier that god, you have to see and admit that direct messaging is not beyond god but his very invention that by passes possible dyslectia Seeing depends more on willingness than on intellect… Our 3D illusion is a compartment of The Whole, a womb, in which immature mankind can evolve and learn. He will never allow immature human spirits to enter The Whole, his kingdom, as long as they/we are violence prone in seeking solutions in the outer world. He will not allow such psychotics to wreck havoc in his creation. To see the illusion and the folly of violent solutions is a first step to the way out of it and brings the ‘rest of the whole’ nearer. Scientists who follow only their senses may be honest, they are also ignorant victims of their ‘in the box training’ and not true scientists as defined by Einstein. They are merely labourers in the service of the elite. There is no trickery or unjustness from god in this. If you understand, you see infinite love, protection and the highest gift in the universe, free will. Learn to think not from the ego that seeks survival, but from your inner source that is you/god and only reality.

JK- But scientists are the least violent people on the planet. It is religious folk that have been engaging in violence since time known. Also Muslims who uphold Quran Alone never physically fight with each other. All we do is discuss, debate and improve our understanding.

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This question is asked and anwered above. Prediction? Prophets do and did. All knowledge is within. No limits except those self imposed.

JK- Prophets did and we can verify those predictions. If theyr significantly true then we can say that they were real Prophets. This is exactly my point. One who claims to be able to communicate with GOD needs to make accurate AND SPECIFIC, NOT VAGUE, predictions of one kind or another. GOD Bless!

Whether you are able to observe individuals that lead a very different life depends on your willingness to seek them.
In a world ruled by the darkness where even a hint of a different view can result in persecution and death you can hardly expect those who embody such views to expose themselves to those who are under the rule of darkness and are known respond violently.

There is nothing vague about inner realities of a true spiritual life, except for those who are still stuck in the outer illusion.
Why do you mention tunnel vision and biological factors? These apply to the outer illusion.
Not to the inner reality, even though biological factors come in play.
The inner realities have no need, nor any desire, to comply with the follies of outer demands.
Nor does it seek or need its verification.
It CREATES the outer illusion in order for humans to evolve.

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Yes but the people who accepted Quran Alone come from all kinds of backgrounds and cultures and yet they all reach certain significant similar conclusions.

This is not a valid argument. It is quite normal that people from many different back grounds come in contact with a certain teaching and decide to follow it.
It merely means that they share the same level of spiritual development.
Following your logic, you must conclude that the many more who did not decide to follow that particular teaching are proof that the teaching is false!

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Scientists also vary in many opinions but there’s never physical violence amongst them. THIS was the issue. It doesn’t matter how hard we may disagree we never physically attack anyone because of these differences, something which sectarians do.

This is not quite true.
The scientific community is perhaps the most fundamentalist ‘religion’ AND very aggressive towards real scientists who dare to challenge vested views and interests. Many have been destroyed and even murdered. Not only in Bruno’s time but especially in this time.

I do not wish to discuss which interpretation of quran is the right one but instead remind you there are hundreds of conflicting verses, I believe the official number is more that 600.
No need to deny, the quran itself confirms this fact.
I do not deny primitive minds the right to interpret and live by violent verses ( such people do the best they can just like you and me ), I simply deny them the right to be my neighbour in my country and do not think of becoming theirs in their country.
Until the day comes, very soon now, there must be a place on this planet for all creeds.
You can not claim your interpretation to be the only correct one, that is what it means to be sectarian.
My view is that a ‘correct interpretation’ can not possibly exist or come from the illusion of the outer world or from those who believe that world to be the reality.
It can only come from those who know the reality of the inner world.
That’s why the quran warns not to study it before your time, that means before you understand the true reality it refers to, which is the inner reality.

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You need to study the Quran more carefully and not fall into sectarian biased interpretations/understandings.

No thank you, I read it and have no need for further study. Why study a sign post if you already see the holy city it refers to on the horizon?
And again, who shall judge what is biased and what is not? For your opinion countless others, you will never agree.
Try to escape from that devilish trap.

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For everyday purposes Newtonian science works very well. Actually for all non-quantum levels it’s accurate enough.

You are putting the horse behind the wagon here.
It works only within the earth destroying and therefore false Newtonian world we created in the false belief it is the truth.
With a more truthful and less manipulated science we could have built an entirely different world. In fact, a paradise on earth.
It IS quantum physics that show the way. The technology had been around for more than 100 years.

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Quantum physics IS TAUGHT as part of science and all the major theories associated with it including the Copenhagen interpretation. The uses though will only be actually required once we are able to make quantum computers.

??? Actually, there are already many products that are based on quantum understanding. Our world can not exist without them.

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If i say experience something and label it as Divine, does it really mean it is Divine? On what PATTERN do I base this and how do I deduce that the experience was Divine inspiration?

I sense some desperation and frustration, caused by the fact that I merely refer to inner realities without explanation.
You must forgive me. I once tried to explain a beautiful sun set to a blind man. A futile exercise.
Fortunately for you, the blinded inner eye is never inoperable. The cure is in the realisation that the outer eyes are fooling us.
Be patient, do not expect or demand a simple answer that you can store and classify.
The answer IS simple but NOBODY can give it to you. Seek and ye shall find. ASK and ye shall be given.
There is a divine arrangement that those who do so sincerely will be answered.
The main thing is that you question all things, especially those you most strongly believe in.
As long as you cling to learned truths, you cling to the very lock that keeps the door closed.
To Unlearn is the key. Then there is place for what is not learned but received.
In a dream, a sudden insight, an event that rings a bell, in many ways.

There is however little change of you doing that, as long as you continue to ignore the fact that books NEVER reveal an objective truth because such truth does NOT EXIST.
In other words, that your understanding of scriptures is AT ALL TIMES yours and yours alone. (more precise, of those who conditioned you).
You wish to add a truth to your truth, to expand yours and do it on your terms.
I tell you it will not happen.
Truth and illusion are mutually exclusive; you can not serve two lords.

You will have to decide; will you worship a sign post or seek the (inner) city it refers to?
Will you worship a collection of concepts (book) from a stone age world you have never known, or will you worship the infallible Living Word that comes to you from moment to moment and is always available for free without the need to study?

Just look around you and see for once the suffering that is and always has been caused by religion, and decide to rely only on your common sense, conscience, intuition, love rather than rule, mercy rather than justice. Those are the guidelines given by the almighty.
If you do, you will grow into it and receive more clarity and gain self confidence.
Pray and ASK for it, without conditions.
Do not say/think ‘but I want to keep my truth and anything new has to fit in’.
If you are not prepared to risk what is most dear to you, than you are not ready yet to be a genuine jihadi and you will continue your struggle until you time has come.

I don’t envy you, you have been heavily conditioned to believe that the quran is the undisputable truth by those who are not able to understand that paper and ink can NEVER bring the truth but only reflect what is already (or still is…) WITHIN you.
Sad but true, those who fail to see that a book is but a mirror are condemned to follow their own convictions (actually, their communities…) and never mature into spiritual adulthood, which is a direct relationship with their inner creator.

I hope and pray that one day you shall take courage and understand the true meaning of the words FREE WILL and claim it as your birthright.

Peace “anders”,

anders wrote on Fri, 08 August 2008 01:31

Whether you are able to observe individuals that lead a very different life depends on your willingness to seek them. In a world ruled by the darkness where even a hint of a different view can result in persecution and death you can hardly expect those who embody such views to expose themselves to those who are under the rule of darkness and are known respond violently.

JK- This might be the case in “Islamic” countries but here in the west and particularly the USA freedom of speech and expression is a fundamental right of every individual. So that is not a problem here at all. ALSO scientists debate and verbally fight amongst themselves all the time. That is the beauty of the self correcting system of science which is anything but elite controlled.

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There is nothing vague about inner realities of a true spiritual life, except for those who are still stuck in the outer illusion. Why do you mention tunnel vision and biological factors? These apply to the outer illusion. Not to the inner reality, even though biological factors come in play. The inner realities have no need, nor any desire, to comply with the follies of outer demands. Nor does it seek or need its verification. It CREATES the outer illusion in order for humans to evolve.

JK- This understanding of the world being just an illusion is very problematic for it is GOD who gave us the brain and the body which thinks and carries out various tasks in the world we live in. If GOD wants us to know the truth by an inner reality then He would fairly provide the sincere with objective evidence which they would observe and then accept. It doesn’t make any sense otherwise.

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This is not a valid argument. It is quite normal that people from many different back grounds come in contact with a certain teaching and decide to follow it. It merely means that they share the same level of spiritual development. Following your logic, you must conclude that the many more who did not decide to follow that particular teaching are proof that the teaching is false!

JK- NO you do not understand. Scripture can have many interpretations but these people independently came to many of the SAME interpretations of scripture independently. That’s what makes the whole thing significant. They were not initially influenced by other like believing folk to do so. This is a very important point. And as you can see there is nothing much wrong technically with our ideology as we stand for freedom of ideology/religion and expression and do not engage in any kind of physical threats to anyone who thinks differently than us. That alone is enough to make us unique.

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This is not quite true. The scientific community is perhaps the most fundamentalist ‘religion’ AND very aggressive towards real scientists who dare to challenge vested views and interests. Many have been destroyed and even murdered. Not only in Bruno’s time but especially in this time.

JK- Now your making up conspiracies. Tell me today how many and which scientists murdered others because they were of a different opinion?

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I do not wish to discuss which interpretation of quran is the right one but instead remind you there are hundreds of conflicting verses, I believe the official number is more that 600. No need to deny, the quran itself confirms this fact.

JK- Mention some here which you think are conflicting and I will explain why they only may look so initially or are understood wrongly plainly due to mistranslation.

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I do not deny primitive minds the right to interpret and live by violent verses ( such people do the best they can just like you and me ), I simply deny them the right to be my neighbour in my country and do not think of becoming theirs in their country.

JK- When I hear that the Quran contains verses to be violent I immediately want to bang my head against the wall. Do you know why? BECAUSE the Quran makes a basic statement “NEVER AGRESS”. All those verses which talk about fighting are in SELF DEFENSE. If someone tries to drive us out of our homes using guns etc THEN WE MUST NOT SIT BACK LIKE COWARDS. We must fight and cut of the attackers hands and feet and kill them showing them that physical violence against us will never work. BUT even here the Quran says “NEVER TRANSGRESS” meaning that even if those vile and fully armed people ask us in the final minute that they want peace, WE STILL NEED TO STOP IMMEDIATELY and not fight anymore. That is the message of the Quran my friend. Absolutely rational and fair.

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Until the day comes, very soon now, there must be a place on this planet for all creeds. You can not claim your interpretation to be the only correct one, that is what it means to be sectarian. My view is that a ‘correct interpretation’ can not possibly exist or come from the illusion of the outer world or from those who believe that world to be the reality. It can only come from those who know the reality of the inner world. That’s why the quran warns not to study it before your time, that means before you understand the true reality it refers to, which is the inner reality.

JK- Do you know what was the motto I suggested for freeminds “YOU(other people) be the ones to interoret the Quran for us(independently)”. I am always willing to accept interpretations if people independently come to the same conclusions by checking unbiased classical dictionaries, cross referencing the Quran and taking into account grammar and context.

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No thank you, I read it and have no need for further study. Why study a sign post if you already see the holy city it refers to on the horizon? And again, who shall judge what is biased and what is not? For your opinion countless others, you will never agree. Try to escape from that devilish trap.

JK- Do I have to agree with others? The problem is not agreeing with each other but not engaging in physical damage to each other because of disagreements something which muslims who follow Quran NEVER do. As for you seeing the holy city on the horizon your making a bold claim. But unless you provide some evidence we will consider you arrogant to make such a claim. It is actually claims like these which eventually lead to fights as someone else may also claim he/shes found the holy city with another set of rules attached to it which you wouldn’t agree and the fight starts. WE do NOT claim to possess absolute knowledge.

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You are putting the horse behind the wagon here. It works only within the earth destroying and therefore false Newtonian world we created in the false belief it is the truth. With a more truthful and less manipulated science we could have built an entirely different world. In fact, a paradise on earth. It IS quantum physics that show the way. The technology had been around for more than 100 years.

JK- Quantum physics is a major field in science but as I said the technology is not ripe enough yet. The quantum computers currently being tested still face great interference problems. Only if those are resolved, and scientists in the field are working on it day and night, can this come true. If you say that such technology to prevent interference has been around for 100 years that is simply not true.

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Actually, there are already many products that are based on quantum understanding. Our world can not exist without them.

JK- True but as I said our understanding of quantum mechanics has not reached that far so we can get rid of the interference problem which is necessary to proceed in this regard.

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I sense some desperation and frustration, caused by the fact that I merely refer to inner realities without explanation. You must forgive me. I once tried to explain a beautiful sun set to a blind man. A futile exercise.

JK- Lets go with this example for a moment. If a man is blind from birth it is ofcourse very difficult. In that case you would have to use brain stimulation in the visual area. If that too is damaged then that is not possible and there need to be other things which he could appreciate. BUT what has this got to do with the sun set containing a certain message from GOD which is here the issue? Knowing or not knowing a sunset doesn’t make any difference in regards to the message of GOD. It is just one of many signs. A blind man can still use his other senses to certify truth to a certain degree meaning whether a certain message is true or not by presenting him a prediction which he later experiences to come out true.
Or are you saying that you have a sixth sense which I don’t? If that is the case then I have another suggestion. Lets gather together people from around the world who all claim to have that same sense and ask some to make predictions using those senses which other with that extra sense INDEPENDENTLY confirm to be true. Also you could yourself use that sense and predict something in this world which I can sense with my five senses. GOD always gives possibilities which can be objectively verified by the sincere. It doesn’t work otherwise and it would make GOD, GOD forbid, unjust.

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Fortunately for you, the blinded inner eye is never inoperable. The cure is in the realisation that the outer eyes are fooling us. Be patient, do not expect or demand a simple answer that you can store and classify. The answer IS simple but NOBODY can give it to you. Seek and ye shall find. ASK and ye shall be given. There is a divine arrangement that those who do so sincerely will be answered. The main thing is that you question all things, especially those you most strongly believe in. As long as you cling to learned truths, you cling to the very lock that keeps the door closed. To Unlearn is the key. Then there is place for what is not learned but received. In a dream, a sudden insight, an event that rings a bell, in many ways.

JK- If that is the case then truth is subjective and relative and this does not fit the concept of a just god. So I cannot accept this. There has to be an objective way to verify Truth.

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There is however little change of you doing that, as long as you continue to ignore the fact that books NEVER reveal an objective truth because such truth does NOT EXIST.

JK- Books can reveal truth with very good objective accuracy. I do not claim to know the absolute truth and no one should but only a certain probability of the truth.

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In other words, that your understanding of scriptures is AT ALL TIMES yours and yours alone. (more precise, of those who conditioned you). You wish to add a truth to your truth, to expand yours and do it on your terms. I tell you it will not happen. Truth and illusion are mutually exclusive; you can not serve two lords.

JK- I believe ive already explained that when one studies a book using independent researchers the interpretation nd understanding become objective.

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You will have to decide; will you worship a sign post or seek the (inner) city it refers to? Will you worship a collection of concepts (book) from a stone age world you have never known, or will you worship the infallible Living Word that comes to you from moment to moment and is always available for free without the need to study?

JK- I think we know quite a lot about the stone age via arch evidence and yes those are all signs and so is the Quran which calls itself a book of science. Nobody here worships the Quran.

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Just look around you and see for once the suffering that is and always has been caused by religion, and decide to rely only on your common sense, conscience, intuition, love rather than rule, mercy rather than justice. Those are the guidelines given by the almighty.

JK- I see this is exactly your trouble and I made it clear that WE who uphold Quran Alone have NEVER EVER engaged in physical violence and will never do so unless physically attacked.

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If you do, you will grow into it and receive more clarity and gain self confidence. Pray and ASK for it, without conditions. Do not say/think ‘but I want to keep my truth and anything new has to fit in’. If you are not prepared to risk what is most dear to you, than you are not ready yet to be a genuine jihadi and you will continue your struggle until you time has come.

JK- Im always ready to change my mind if new EVIDENCE comes in which indicates sufficiently that my way was wrong.

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I don’t envy you, you have been heavily conditioned to believe that the quran is the undisputable truth by those who are not able to understand that paper and ink can NEVER bring the truth but only reflect what is already (or still is…) WITHIN you.

JK- Infact ive not been conditioned at all. I would have a much easier life if I rejected the Quran in total. Did you know sectarian “muslims” including my uncles told me it were better if I became a Christian and not hold onto the Quran? Infact my holding on to the Quran is more risky since the sectarians see that as a real threat. So I must be real stupid to accept the Quran as a special scripture if the evidence were not sufficiently pointing in that direction.

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Sad but true, those who fail to see that a book is but a mirror are condemned to follow their own convictions (actually, their communities…) and never mature into spiritual adulthood, which is a direct relationship with their inner creator.

JK- Ok a book puts reality in words. That’s a function of a book. In case of divine scripture it also uses words to make useful predictions which are not as easily obtained otherwise. That is the whole function of language and divine inspiration. If that were not to be GOD’s mechanism then GOD forbid, your saying that He created useless tools just to fool us.

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I hope and pray that one day you shall take courage and understand the true meaning of the words FREE WILL and claim it as your birthright.

JK- Free will is defined as a will which is not influenced by other entities that we know to be conscious or possess the same level of consciousness as us. That is the best definition I can come up with. Free will in the absolute sense does not exist since everything is cause and effect ultimately. According to that definition ive already made it clear that I try to do as much independent research as possible. GOD Bless!

This is useless jonnyk.

You are no longer trying to learn something, or even remotely interested in anything different from your view.

Considering your view and apparent back ground, you can not possibly digest what I am writing within the time you take to reply and your answers show that you have no intention of changing even one iota of what you already hold to be the truth.
Such attitude is the hallmark of fundamentalists and sectarians.

I feel no need to take you into another world, if you are happy with the views that others imprinted in your brains long ago during childhood when you where to young to discern, then keep them.

Do you know that a chicken coming out of its egg is programmed to accept as its mother the first thing it sees moving? If it’s a cat, than it will follow the cat.
A Frenchman even succeeded to have a new born flock of geese follow him air borne in his lightweight flying machine! In V- formation!

Humans are designed to do exactly that!!
The first ‘truths’ that are being poured into our blank slate brains are practically non-removable. To do so takes great effort and courage.
Demagogues know this very well and for this reason seek to ‘educate’ children at early age.
Of course this is not education but deformation.

You have been deformed in this manner, as I am and as everybody is.
Few people recover from this and learn to reprogram themselves to some degree as free and independent thinkers.
You have clearly no intention at this point of doing so.
You refuse to accept that you can only read in a book what is already in your mind and that therefore you are not worshipping that book but your own opinion about what you falsely perceive to be written in it.
You are a self worshipper!
Perhaps, reading this, you can understand why early imprinted religions always cause bloodshed and never peace. Its because culture is imprinted as gods word!

If you do not even know there are over 600 conflicting verses in the quran then what right do you claim to know what is written in it?

Just consider this:
What are the chances that an infant/child in this mad world has access to higher truths AND is capable of understanding them correctly, considering that for thousands of years all of mankind , including many geniuses, have failed to do so???
That chance is exactly ZERO.

Nevertheless, you choose to believe that you pulled it off. That your childhood truth/deformation is THE truth, and that there is nothing to learn anymore for you.

I wish you the proper amount of suffering needed to come to your senses.

Peace "anders"

anders wrote on Fri, 08 August 2008 20:14

This is useless jonnyk. You are no longer trying to learn something, or even remotely interested in anything different from your view.

JK- Oh but i am. Im very willing to learn and if there is evidence I'll see it. Until now I havnt seen any in this regard but I'm not having a closed mind and GOD, the most merciful, will not hold me to account for something i didnt know or did not have verification for yet.

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Considering your view and apparent back ground, you can not possibly digest what I am writing within the time you take to reply and your answers show that you have no intention of changing even one iota of what you already hold to be the truth. Such attitude is the hallmark of fundamentalists and sectarians.

JK- Ive continuously asked you to present me some kind of evidence and given so many possible suggestions which you apparently ignored. Id say this is the attitude of one who arrogantly believes to know it all.

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I feel no need to take you into another world, if you are happy with the views that others imprinted in your brains long ago during childhood when you where to young to discern, then keep them.

JK- As a child i was a fanatic sunni upto 19 years of age. I even wanted to join Osama at tht time. BUT then i one day came to www.submission.org and after viewing code-19 and Quran Alone arguments i finally changed. Now i no longer uphold those violent laws.

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Do you know that a chicken coming out of its egg is programmed to accept as its mother the first thing it sees moving? If it’s a cat, than it will follow the cat. A Frenchman even succeeded to have a new born flock of geese follow him air borne in his lightweight flying machine! In V- formation!

JK- Apparently you dont know me very well. Try and read through my posts, especially at freeminds, and see how my understanding has evolved.

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Humans are designed to do exactly that!! The first ‘truths’ that are being poured into our blank slate brains are practically non-removable. To do so takes great effort and courage. Demagogues know this very well and for this reason seek to ‘educate’ children at early age. Of course this is not education but deformation. You have been deformed in this manner, as I am and as everybody is. Few people recover from this and learn to reprogram themselves to some degree as free and independent thinkers. You have clearly no intention at this point of doing so. You refuse to accept that you can only read in a book what is already in your mind and that therefore you are not worshipping that book but your own opinion about what you falsely perceive to be written in it. You are a self worshipper! Perhaps, reading this, you can understand why early imprinted religions always cause bloodshed and never peace. Its because culture is imprinted as gods word!

JK- Once again i can only tell you that im nothing like that and i most definitely do NOT promote violence.

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If you do not even know there are over 600 conflicting verses in the quran then what right do you claim to know what is written in it?

JK- As i said bring them up one by one and we can discuss them and see if theyr so.

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Just consider this: What are the chances that an infant/child in this mad world has access to higher truths AND is capable of understanding them correctly, considering that for thousands of years all of mankind , including many geniuses, have failed to do so??? That chance is exactly ZERO.

JK- Not all have failed. There are many rational and peaceful people on this planet including us who uphold Quran Alone.

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Nevertheless, you choose to believe that you pulled it off. That your childhood truth/deformation is THE truth, and that there is nothing to learn anymore for you. I wish you the proper amount of suffering needed to come to your senses.

JK- See now you are the one wishing bad for me whilst you dont know much about me. Ive even rebelled, verbally, against my parents beliefs and these very days im trying to convince my father to quit upholding those violent hadith. Im nothing like those sectarian "muslims" and apparently you cannot differentiate between us and them. GOD Bless!

With my last message I did not aim to be accurate and just, I needed your response on it to better understand where the heck you are standing. We seem to communicate on different frequencies.

I can see that you are seeking and prepared to learn.
We all are, but the problem is that most of us exclude certain ‘holy’ truths from investigation. And it is this conditional attitude that puts us at risk of running around in circles, forever in the box with no hope for escape.
Your holy truth is the quran, and I m trying to tell you that that is an illusion.
Because what you hold to be the quranic message is in reality merely YOUR understanding of it, based on your cultural back ground.
In other words, what you get out of it, is ALWAYS your version of it, NEVER thé version. There is no such thing as thé version.
Therefore it is of utmost importance to understand that one should never maintain a view on the quran (or other) once it is formed. That amounts to spiritual death.
You seek to evolve. That can not be without evolving, changing, your understanding about written words.
As you proceed, you will discover what I mean. I myself many times thought I had finally left all crab behind, only to discover there was still more that was also crab, hidden in the crevices of my programmed mind and negatively influencing me, holding me back, depriving me of my birthright which is FREEDOM of ALL bondage in direct communion with the Highest.

Therefore, and this my objection, you can never defend your view by saying ‘it is in the quran’ or ‘your view opposes the quran’.
If you do that, than you are merely defending your nor-yet-perfect-view against the power of reason.
This in itself is a non-islamic attitude, and defeats the purpose of dialogue.

On conflicting quranic verses, I really do not have the time to find the site back where the full list was given. Just google ‘conflicting verses in quran’ or something similar and you will find plenty of information. Again, the quran itself talks about such verses. It states that the last written has preference over the previous ones, but maintains that the previous ones are not cancelled! That’s like saying the speed limit is now 50 mph but your still allowed to speed at the previous limit of 90 mph.
If you live by the quran as you say, than you seem to live by something you do not know very well!

On Sufism, You said Sufis hold Mohammad in high esteem. That’s not my understanding of Sufism.
I see Sufism as the more advanced esoteric version of islam. Islam for adults so to speak.
For Sufis, the only thing holy is the Truth.
See e.g. http://www.nimatullahi.org/sufism

You wrote:
‘Not all have failed. There are many rational and peaceful people on this planet including us who uphold Quran Alone.’
Exceptions make the rule. I was referring to the rule.
Your phrasing is typical for what I refer to as elitism.
There is weakness in your statement:
- Like the Sufis and many others, you should seek to uphold the Truth only. That cán be found via the quran but also via many other sources. For example in the only book that god ever wrote himself, the book of nature.
- ‘us who uphold’ is elitism and judgemental here. Because many of those you denounce can, and do, make the same claim. Considering this, and the many conflicting verses, you can not uphold THE quran but only part of it and your understanding of it.

I did not wish you bad, I wished you the proper amount of suffering needed for advancement.
I wish you the blessing of that suffering, which is the result of it.
‘Blessed are those who suffer for my ( i.e. state of enlightenment) sake, for they will inherit the kingdom.’
Preferably, this is the suffering of knowing not to know. If that is not sufficient to make one move and abandon programming, one will be blessed with greater suffering.

Peace “anders”,

anders wrote on Sat, 09 August 2008 16:07

With my last message I did not aim to be accurate and just, I needed your response on it to better understand where the heck you are standing. We seem to communicate on different frequencies. I can see that you are seeking and prepared to learn. We all are, but the problem is that most of us exclude certain ‘holy’ truths from investigation. And it is this conditional attitude that puts us at risk of running around in circles, forever in the box with no hope for escape. Your holy truth is the quran, and I m trying to tell you that that is an illusion.

JK- Yes but my truth is the Quran because there has been enough evidence to support it. Think of it as “Quranic theory”. Just like the big bang and the theor of evolution. Those help us make predictions and because of the evidence supporting them we accept them. ALL OF THEM, including the Quran being something marvellous, are FALSIFIABLE and im ready to change my mind if significant evidence goes against the Quran being accurate. Its that simple. IM NOT like other religious folk.

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Because what you hold to be the quranic message is in reality merely YOUR understanding of it, based on your cultural back ground.

JK- NO this is completely FALSE because my understanding of the Quran is vastly the OPPOSITE of what my background has taught me. Again I cannot repeat this enough I had to do a lot of unlearning and study the Quran using independent inquiry which includes the use of classical Arabic dictionaries, careful contextual analysis AND CROSS REFERENCING WITHIN THE QURAN. All this lead me to the conclusion that the Quran is significant.

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In other words, what you get out of it, is ALWAYS your version of it, NEVER thé version. There is no such thing as thé version.

JK- Oh yes there is and it is obtained through MORE THAN ONE PERSON AS INDEPENDENT AS POSSIBLE coming to SIMILAR CONCLUSIONS.

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Therefore it is of utmost importance to understand that one should never maintain a view on the quran (or other) once it is formed. That amounts to spiritual death. You seek to evolve. That can not be without evolving, changing, your understanding about written words. As you proceed, you will discover what I mean. I myself many times thought I had finally left all crab behind, only to discover there was still more that was also crab, hidden in the crevices of my programmed mind and negatively influencing me, holding me back, depriving me of my birthright which is FREEDOM of ALL bondage in direct communion with the Highest.

JK- As I said I only maintain a view as long as evidence supports it and it appears to be true beyond all reasonable doubt. Im always ready to change my mind and if you just cared to look through my posts at FM youd know how many times ive changed my mind. INFACT I was once a staunch supporter of creationism. Here take a look at how I EVOLVED:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13378.0

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Therefore, and this my objection, you can never defend your view by saying ‘it is in the quran’ or ‘your view opposes the quran’. If you do that, than you are merely defending your nor-yet-perfect-view against the power of reason. This in itself is a non-islamic attitude, and defeats the purpose of dialogue.

JK- From my current refernce point and my intentions being pure I and any other human ebing CAN say this. This is part of our indispensable right of free speech BUT others can counter this too ofcourse and if something is not right the other can always point that out. I will never engage in physical violence because of a difference of opinion even in regards to what is considered the most basic principals laid out in the Quran.

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On conflicting quranic verses, I really do not have the time to find the site back where the full list was given. Just google ‘conflicting verses in quran’ or something similar and you will find plenty of information. Again, the quran itself talks about such verses. It states that the last written has preference over the previous ones, but maintains that the previous ones are not cancelled! That’s like saying the speed limit is now 50 mph but your still allowed to speed at the previous limit of 90 mph.

JK- I know which verses your talking about and you can find a refute to all those supposed contradictions too at many sites. But those are just sites you will say SO I asked you to bring upo these verses here. 2ndly I know the verse you mean regarding abrogation BUT it does not talk about abrogation of verses in the Quran. Infact the word “ayat” basically means “sign” not “verse”. Hence GOD substitutes a former “sign” with a greater “sign” in the future. This happens all the time as we learn more about the natural world and appreciate Him more and more.

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If you live by the quran as you say, than you seem to live by something you do not know very well!

JK- As you can see now I know the Quran pretty well and ive never claimed to know it all.

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On Sufism, You said Sufis hold Mohammad in high esteem. That’s not my understanding of Sufism. I see Sufism as the more advanced esoteric version of islam. Islam for adults so to speak. For Sufis, the only thing holy is the Truth. See e.g. http://www.nimatullahi.org/sufism

JK- Sufism or “Islamic” mysticism has its origin from Muhammad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi
Hence they make Muhammad into something special who supposedly taught these mystical teachings to those who were supposedly able to “directly” communicate with GOD.

Quote:

You wrote: ‘Not all have failed. There are many rational and peaceful people on this planet including us who uphold Quran Alone.’ Exceptions make the rule. I was referring to the rule. Your phrasing is typical for what I refer to as elitism. There is weakness in your statement: - Like the Sufis and many others, you should seek to uphold the Truth only. That cán be found via the quran but also via many other sources. For example in the only book that god ever wrote himself, the book of nature.

JK- YES ofcourse the book of nature which we can only get accurate info of via the scientific method which we’re greatly in favor off. Sufis mostly just retreat to the woods and pray. We do NOT support such view.

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- ‘us who uphold’ is elitism and judgemental here. Because many of those you denounce can, and do, make the same claim. Considering this, and the many conflicting verses, you can not uphold THE quran but only part of it and your understanding of it.

JK- Our intention is to uphold the Quran Alone and you are right there are many people who are closer to the Quranic message than most of those who call themselves “muslims”.

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I did not wish you bad, I wished you the proper amount of suffering needed for advancement. I wish you the blessing of that suffering, which is the result of it. ‘Blessed are those who suffer for my ( i.e. state of enlightenment) sake, for they will inherit the kingdom.’ Preferably, this is the suffering of knowing not to know. If that is not sufficient to make one move and abandon programming, one will be blessed with greater suffering.

JK- I don’t know whether it is a good thing to wish suffering for someone or to consider suffering a blessing. Rather it could be a test/trial which would be left behind, then a period of relaxation and then another test/trial until one reaches a period of indefinite relaxation but even here the Quran says “as long as the heavens and earth(new universe” endure). So whether there is anything like absolute indefinite amount of peace is unknown. GOD Bless!

Welcome to the board Anders:

Currently I do not have time to respond your thesis with a detailed philosophical argument, but I have two simple questions:

1. Are you Satan?

2. Is there a way that you can prove me that you are not the Satan or his/her/its agent?

Peace,
Edip

1. In this world its holy man that are more likely to be accused of being Satan, and persecuted and even killed, by the populace. Its the unholy that are popular.
I am not a holy man (yet)

2. A tricky question; if I knew a way I might be him, for Satan is the one with the tricks up his sleeve.
Us mortals do not know how to prove a negative.

You have a strange way of showing your confessed appreciation for a more liberated and investigative approach to life.

I took a look at that forum page.
Good lord jonnyk, a biblical approach to the quran?? The ultimate psychosis. Good on you to have recovered from that.

It is clear you wish to be acknowledged as a free minded investigator. You’re on track, but I am not ready yet to grand you that status. There’s one more hurdle that needs to be taken.
One that I pointed out more than once, I’ll try one more time:
There are two variables, one is the quran (A) and the other is the/your understanding of it (B).
Naïve readers, say basic school or little above that, always confuse those variables.
Their confused thinking is based on the erroneous assumption that A=B, hence the endless conflicts.
Unless you claim to be god himself, A NEVER equals B. A = NOT B.
As long as you are not capable of making this distinction, you are just another member of the populace that mistakes his view for gods view, B for A. (assuming the quran IS gods word)

You say you have rid yourself from your childhood religious deformation. To some extent that will be true. But as I said before, for many years to come you will (hopefully) again and again discover the clean up wasn’t completed yet.
I maintain that your repeated statement that you follow the quran is a remnant, and the most difficult one to remove, of this childhood deformation that makes it impossible for you to see the distinction between A and B.
If this psychological block was not in place you would take pride in asserting that you are a seeker of truth, not a follower of a specific book.
You would also not have ignored my arguments on this topic.
I will say no more about this. You’re either ready to see my point or you’re not. If the latter is the case I have no trouble leaving you in the company of the erring masses.

You know my position; the only true word of god is the living word that comes to all who are ready to receive it, from moment to moment. No books needed, no study needed.
Just be, ask and receive. A truly divine system. The only one, forgotten as a result of the original sin that caused mankind to rely on his intellect instead of his heart.
We are now witnessing the end time that will see a reversal of this involutionary event.
You are invited to partake.

You wrote:
‘Oh yes there is and it is obtained through MORE THAN ONE PERSON AS INDEPENDENT AS POSSIBLE coming to SIMILAR CONCLUSIONS’
Again, you ignore the other 6 billion or so who did NOT reach that similar conclusion.

Its fine that you are able to come up with a more peaceful interpretation of the quran, but the quran is meant for all (not according to me) and those ‘all’ read the way they do; simple and to the letter.
And simple reading leads for many to simple violence, e.g. following the violent chapter 9 that was last written and therefore, according to the quran itself, over rules all earlier more peaceful verses.
If you maintain that your more peaceful interpretation is the only correct one, you are ignoring the simple fact that simple reading is what the masses do and that simple reading is what leads to violence based on the violent verses of the quran.
You are also ignoring the fact that the more violent verses (chapter 9) are the later ones and that those who live by it simply do what the quran itself prescribes: the over ruling of the earlier more peaceful verses by the later violent ones.
Following quranic ruling, the violence prone muslims are more right than you!

You wrote:
‘Hence they make Muhammad into something special who supposedly taught these mystical teachings to those who were supposedly able to “directly” communicate with GOD.’
It may be offending to you, but the fact of the matter is that the spiritually advanced or guided ALWAYS keep the more advanced teachings within a select circle that are capable of understanding. Jesus did, and so did many others. The masses would freak out and kill the messenger . Happened many times.
The quran in simple reading is for the violence prone masses, the wise are capable of transmuting the meaning of the verses. The same applies for other ‘holy’ books.

You wrote:
‘Our intention is to uphold the Quran Alone’
AGAIN, NO NO NO.
A = NOT B. Your reading is NOT thé reading.
What you are upholding is YOUR interpretation; others are entitled to their (more violent) interpretation, their simple reading of their favorite verses.